Islam's arrested development

[Softly Spoken]

A nice article by a physics professor from Islamabad:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...slims-religion

Here's the bottom line:

To conclude: scientific progress in Muslim countries requires greater personal and intellectual freedom. Without this there can be no thinking, ideas, innovations, discoveries, or progress. The real challenge is not better equipment or faster internet connectivity. Instead, to move ahead in science, Muslims need freedom from dogmatic beliefs and a culture that questions rather than obeys.

[nasman]

basic education might be a good start for muslim populations.

regards dogma, i'm pretty sure plenty was achieved by christian scientists in the west during less permissive centuries.... the author of the article is completely dismissive of this, i'm not sure what his own qualifications are to make such a sweeping statement:

The ancient science of the Greeks, Chinese, Muslims, and Hindus was a rather limited affair that did not put any theological system under undue stress. Scholars observed, drew a few conclusions, and wrote a treatise that only a few could read. It was inconceivable at that time to imagine that the workings of the entire physical world could be understood from just a handful of basic principles.

[nasman]

it appears he prefers cultural islam, specifically the cult of dead saints and indian sufi mysticism:

For three decades, deep tectonic forces have been silently tearing Pakistan away from the Indian subcontinent and driving it towards the Arabian peninsula. This continental drift is not physical but cultural, driven by a belief that Pakistan must exchange its South Asian identity for an Arab-Muslim one. Grain by grain, the desert sands of Saudi Arabia are replacing the rich soil that had nurtured a magnificent Muslim culture in India for a thousand years. This culture produced Mughul architecture, the Taj Mahal, the poetry of Asadullah Khan Ghalib, and much more. Now a stern, unyielding version of Islam (Wahhabism) is replacing the kinder, gentler Islam of the Sufis and saints who had walked on this land for hundreds of years.

http://www.countercurrents.org/hoodhoy071109.htm

[sapere aude]

Originally Posted by Softly Spoken

A nice article by a physics professor from Islamabad:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...slims-religion

Here's the bottom line:

To conclude: scientific progress in Muslim countries requires greater personal and intellectual freedom. Without this there can be no thinking, ideas, innovations, discoveries, or progress. The real challenge is not better equipment or faster internet connectivity. Instead, to move ahead in science, Muslims need freedom from dogmatic beliefs and a culture that questions rather than obeys.

They should outlaw giving students excellent marks for memorising the text books while penalising those who understand the science and explain it in their own words.

[ah1999]

Originally Posted by nasman

it appears he prefers cultural islam, specifically the cult of dead saints and indian sufi mysticism:
http://www.countercurrents.org/hoodhoy071109.htm

I think he is promoting "modern Islam"....where human intellect and reason is supreme and given preference over religious texts.
So miracles of the Prophets (AS) are only accepted according to rational reasoning and similarly other religious beliefs have to fit in to our logical, rational, scientific thinking.
However, where human reasoning is given preference over religious texts one moves away from some fundamental beliefs of our Faith.

In Islam we give preference to religious texts (Quran and hadith) over human intellect/ reasoning. Our Faith is based on that.

[faith28]

I definitely can see that some muslims within muslim communities are not allowed to explore and ask questions about any issue they like without there being some kind of stigma attached to block that thought from exploring without any preconceived bias (e.g. from family background, culture, upbringing etc).

This behaviour was not so much in existence at the time of the Prophet (SAW) where someone even had the audacity to question him (SAW) with him (SAW) allowing it. So it's not like we're not allowed to do so.

This stigma only leads frustrated individuals who have not gotten the answers to their questions due to taboo and thus either they leave Islam or continue the same mindset and propogate it or they get to be called 'modern muslims' by the 'status quo'.

[Softly Spoken]

Originally Posted by nasman

it appears he prefers cultural islam, specifically the cult of dead saints and indian sufi mysticism:



http://www.countercurrents.org/hoodhoy071109.htm

Wow, another great article. I'm impressed with this guy.

[Blueprint]

Originally Posted by ah1999

I think he is promoting "modern Islam"....where human intellect and reason is supreme and given preference over religious texts.
So miracles of the Prophets (AS) are only accepted according to rational reasoning and similarly other religious beliefs have to fit in to our logical, rational, scientific thinking.
However, where human reasoning is given preference over religious texts one moves away from some fundamental beliefs of our Faith.

In Islam we give preference to religious texts (Quran and hadith) over human intellect/ reasoning. Our Faith is based on that.

ironically enough, to acheive and accept both prespectives in harmony is what islam is actually about. after all no one can has or ever seen a God.........considering that whats the bloody point of these camps. beats me how people bypass basic fact and origin of religion itself, not using the logic at all

[Mikebloke]

Originally Posted by ah1999

I think he is promoting "modern Islam"....where human intellect and reason is supreme and given preference over religious texts.
So miracles of the Prophets (AS) are only accepted according to rational reasoning and similarly other religious beliefs have to fit in to our logical, rational, scientific thinking.
However, where human reasoning is given preference over religious texts one moves away from some fundamental beliefs of our Faith.

In Islam we give preference to religious texts (Quran and hadith) over human intellect/ reasoning. Our Faith is based on that.

Really? I couldn't have converted to Islam if I didn't believe that religion and rational thought went hand in hand. I honestly believe in as literal as an interpretation of the Quran as possible, yet still manage to be liberal minded and use Science and Logic as we know it to fill in the gaps. Rather than letting those gaps go against my religion, they very much support it. If the Quran mentioned absolutely everything in scientific detail, then a) people wouldn't be able to memorise it all and b) people wouldn't have a clue what any of it meant.

Human reasoning is required at all times, because in this life we are not ruled or governed by a greater power, rather we use the time we have to either lead a good life or a bad life. The Muslim countries which are ill developed and culturally backward and sometimes horrible places for humans to live in because of this human reasoning has gone the wrong way, it doesn't doom it completely. If we did not have human reasoning, we would not have the trial of life, and we wouldn't have free will.

Just because leaders claim to be servants of God, doesn't stop them from lying. Even Saddam claimed some degree of divine sovereignty while murdering his own people, mainly other Muslims.

[Blueprint]

Originally Posted by Mikebloke

Really? I couldn't have converted to Islam if I didn't believe that religion and rational thought went hand in hand. I honestly believe in as literal as an interpretation of the Quran as possible, yet still manage to be liberal minded and use Science and Logic as we know it to fill in the gaps. Rather than letting those gaps go against my religion, they very much support it. If the Quran mentioned absolutely everything in scientific detail, then a) people wouldn't be able to memorise it all and b) people wouldn't have a clue what any of it meant.

Human reasoning is required at all times, because in this life we are not ruled or governed by a greater power, rather we use the time we have to either lead a good life or a bad life. The Muslim countries which are ill developed and culturally backward and sometimes horrible places for humans to live in because of this human reasoning has gone the wrong way, it doesn't doom it completely. If we did not have human reasoning, we would not have the trial of life, and we wouldn't have free will.

Just because leaders claim to be servants of God, doesn't stop them from lying. Even Saddam claimed some degree of divine sovereignty while murdering his own people, mainly other Muslims.

the reason why anyone would throw logic as alien to islam for whatever reason only promotes the culture of apathy and dissent, these people whaeter unknowingly or other follow the status qou.......

[ah1999]

Assalaamu alaikum and Eid Mubarak everyone,

Firstly, re Pervez Hoodbhoy who wrote the article cited in the opening post, this quote from him gives some indication of his thinking on religion/Islam:

"Our collective survival lies in recognizing that religion is not the solution; neither is nationalism. Both are divisive, embedding within us false notions of superiority and arrogant pride that are difficult to erase. We have but one choice: the path of secular humanism, based upon the principles of logic and reason. This alone offers the hope of providing everybody on this globe with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Pervez Hoodbhoy
_________________________________________________________

Secondly, re Rational thinking/logic in Islam this subject matter has been discussed several times on this Forum and I have personally written a number of posts on it.

1. Islam contains reason/logic but it is not it's main basis.
2. There are different levels of knowledge. Religious texts (Quran and hadith) take precedence over logic/ human reasoning/ human intellect.

Since it is Eid-ul-Adha consider the story of Hadrat Abraham (Ibrahim) AS, he was commanded by God to sacrifice his son, who had not even reached maturity. Had he used reason and logic he would not have been willing to sacrifice his son. Fow what reason would anyone want to sacrifice an innocent child? The son similarly did not object…why do you want to kill me? What sin have I committed?
Both hadrat Ibrahim AS and his son submitted to the Will of the Almighty without questioning. Islam means submission to the Will of God.

Wassalaam

[faith28]

Originally Posted by ah1999

Since it is Eid-ul-Adha consider the story of Hadrat Abraham (Ibrahim) AS, he was commanded by God to sacrifice his son, who had not even reached maturity. Had he used reason and logic he would not have been willing to sacrifice his son. Fow what reason would anyone want to sacrifice an innocent child? The son similarly did not object…why do you want to kill me? What sin have I committed?
Both hadrat Ibrahim AS and his son submitted to the Will of the Almighty without questioning. Islam means submission to the Will of God.

Wassalaam

I disagree with this. I believe he (AS) DID use reason and logic...he (AS) knew Allah (SWT) knows best and this is perfectly reasonable and logical to obey Allah (SWT) knowing as a human being we don't know best.

Therefore using that example is consistent to using logic and reason albeit a higher level of logic and reason.

To get to that level he (AS) even questioned the existence of Allah (SWT) before he came to the conclusion that Allah (SWT) MUST exist after asking and reflecting. Most muslims aren't even allowed to question their own school of thought let alone anything else.

It is this stagnation that leads to some people becoming mere followers for cultural reasons rather than intellectual reasons (or for those it is a continued journey that never ends).

Submission to Allah (SWT) simply comes after complete belief in Allah (SWT). We can only completely submit once we are sure of Allah (SWT) right over our own self. This is attainment of Faith which comes with great reflection for us all.

[nasman]

Originally Posted by faith28

Submission to Allah (SWT) simply comes after complete belief in Allah (SWT). We can only completely submit once we are sure of Allah (SWT) right over our own self. This is attainment of Faith which comes with great reflection for us all.

submission doesn't need an extraordinary personal journey of discovery - if you are sincere in your belief but not necessarily someone who questions everything then that is sufficient.

[faith28]

Originally Posted by nasman

submission doesn't need an extraordinary personal journey of discovery - if you are sincere in your belief but not necessarily someone who questions everything then that is sufficient.

Some people do not require to question everything because they have already reached that conclusion of belief and firm faith. They probably have a lot of answers for us and these are called 'wise' people. They come from all walks of life ...that doesn't mean they do not conclude based on logic or reason.

Others need to experience and questions to come to conclusions.

Everyone has their own unique journey.

[sapere aude]

Originally Posted by Blueprint

the reason why anyone would throw logic as alien to islam for whatever reason only promotes the culture of apathy and dissent, these people whaeter unknowingly or other follow the status qou.......

I think there is a difference between "logic" and rational thinking. "Logic" is a very limited mode of rational thinking. Rational thinking covers much more.

[amar_labedi]

Assalamalikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu


Some people do not require to question everything because they have already reached that conclusion of belief and firm faith. They probably have a lot of answers for us and these are called 'wise' people. They come from all walks of life ...that doesn't mean they do not conclude based on logic or reason.

will a person believe and have faith acording to his senses/knowledge or his upbringing...

[faith28]

Originally Posted by amar_labedi

Assalamalikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu


Some people do not require to question everything because they have already reached that conclusion of belief and firm faith. They probably have a lot of answers for us and these are called 'wise' people. They come from all walks of life ...that doesn't mean they do not conclude based on logic or reason.

will a person believe and have faith acording to his senses/knowledge or his upbringing...

Walaikum usalaam wa rahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

Depends upon the person and the context of their upbringing. Some people are already brought up in an environment that is consistent with the correct adab of Islam.

If a person is brought up in an environment that is not in harmony with all of Islam's values and principles then as long as that person can later (through their own journey) identify in themselves which is upbringing and which is a good path then they may be able to steer themselves well in life.

[Muntasir]

Originally Posted by Softly Spoken

A nice article by a physics professor from Islamabad:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...slims-religion

Here's the bottom line:

To conclude: scientific progress in Muslim countries requires greater personal and intellectual freedom. Without this there can be no thinking, ideas, innovations, discoveries, or progress. The real challenge is not better equipment or faster internet connectivity. Instead, to move ahead in science, Muslims need freedom from dogmatic beliefs and a culture that questions rather than obeys.

given that you are not muslim anymore, why should it concern you?
Shouldnt you be living a full and vibrant life somewhere after casting off the shackles of Islam, instead of hanging out in a muslim forum?

[sapere aude]

Originally Posted by faith28

Walaikum usalaam wa rahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

Depends upon the person and the context of their upbringing. Some people are already brought up in an environment that is consistent with the correct adab of Islam.

If a person is brought up in an environment that is not in harmony with all of Islam's values and principles then as long as that person can later (through their own journey) identify in themselves which is upbringing and which is a good path then they may be able to steer themselves well in life.

Some people are quite capable of doing this from quite an early age, despite the difficulties.

[Softly Spoken]

Originally Posted by Muntasir

given that you are not muslim anymore, why should it concern you?

Lots of things concern/interest me. It's good to have diverse interests, don't you think?

Shouldnt you be living a full and vibrant life somewhere after casting off the shackles of Islam

That, I assure you, I am doing!

instead of hanging out in a muslim forum?

Why not both? Please refer to my previous comment about diverse interests.