Irshad Manji

IbnRushd · 16-07-2005, 04:56 AM

Quick question: this "expert" (wipes away tears from uncontrollable laughter) appeared on Newsnight and one other television programme this past week on British television. Was it Richard & Judy or some other daytime nonsense?

Thanks.

assalaamu alaekum

UmmZakariya · 16-07-2005, 06:48 AM

wasalaam, pls see:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=1890

thanks

Faisal · 16-07-2005, 06:37 PM

i dont see how this lesbian can come on TV, she wants a new islam, she might aswell start a new sect. dozy thing think women should be given more rights! little does she kno and think homo's should be able to be gay and associates herself with salman rushdie!

Joe Bloggs · 16-07-2005, 06:45 PM

There is a lesbian in my faculty who claims to be a muslim. I have no malice towards her Allah will punish her justly however she does occasionally turn up at the mosque. Now i don't feel comfortable taking off my hijab in front of her thus making wu'du very difficult. What is the ruling on this? I know non-muslims are welcome to the mosque but a lesbian walking into the sisters area just makes me uncomfortable. Also am i allowed to inform others about her nature as i'm sure many sisters are not aware or would this be back-biting? Some advice would be appreciated!

Yahya · 16-07-2005, 06:58 PM

I think it would be back-biting. These thing are for Allah to judge and we are supposed to cover up the faults of others (even really big ones).

You don't know who is or isn't a "lesbian". Even people who are married and live entirely within the accepted boudaries of Islam could be attracted to other women.

In reality concepts like gay and straight are culturally defined and do not exist in Islam. People in Islam can do things which are haram or avoid doing them. But to define someone as a "lesbian" is to define them, as a person, as haram. That isn't possible in Islamic terms.

We judge people by deeds not the instincts they cannot help.

Joe Bloggs · 16-07-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

You don't know who is or isn't a "lesbian".

I'm not speculating or judging her. I hate it when people do that. I know she is lesbian because she has openly declared so and unfortunately has also said being a muslim she herself prefers muslims. Personally i find that repulsive but as i said Allah will punish her justly and just do my utmost to avoid her. However when she enters the mosque i cannot help feeling queasy as you may not be aware but the sisters generally do tend to relax and remove their hijab and other cumbersome items of clothing. I have not said anything about her however i did think there would be some consensus as this is in the general interest of sisters protecting their awrah.

Quote:

But to define someone as a "lesbian" is to define them, as a person, as haram. That isn't possible in Islamic terms.

This is her own definition or to be more precise a 'lesbian muslim'. That cannot exist and equates to saying something as ridiculous as I am a christian muslim! I'm not saying whether she is a muslim or not as only Allah can decide. what i am worried about is by her own admission does she automatically qualify as a non-mehram thus should not be allowed into the sister's area?

barodate · 16-07-2005, 11:03 PM

it wouldnt be backbiting. if i knew someone from the mosque was gay i would have him kicked out straight away. that simple. they have no place in islam or a place amongst us. like that kafir irshad manji who said on richard and judy:

"to think the quran is the word of god is dangerous"

Joe Bloggs · 16-07-2005, 11:14 PM

Jazakallah i was thinking along the same lines. Frankly if in front of a non-muslim woman it is advised to still observe hijab as they may not understand the islamic ettiquettes and therefore should speak of our appearance then i feel a professed lesbian most definitely constitutes a non-mehram thus observing hijab would be mandatory. Saying this however i was just wondering if anyone could provide me with evidence from quran or a hadith/fatwa etc as i don't want to ban her from the mosque just on a personal whim!

Yahya · 17-07-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

I'm not speculating or judging her. I hate it when people do that.

What I mean is that you do not know who among Muslims is attracted to people of the same sex. Many sisters may be but do not say it, because they have no intention of acting on it.

Nobody can be a lesbian Muslim or a gay Muslim. But you won't find a hadith about it because the concept of homosexuality did not exist until the late 19th century. Before then same-sex acts were known but the idea that there was a category of people who could be classified according to sexual preferance did not.

This is why Baro's post bothers me slightly. Would you be so quick to expose a brother who was cheating on his wife or having pre-marital sex. These things are no less haram. If homosexuality is a Western concept so is homophobia. Both are rooted in the idea that there are two sorts of people, the heterosexual, who is "natural" according to Darwinian ideas and the homosexual who is "unatural". Surely we see acts as haram or halal, not classes of people. If you read the advice of scholars to people who are attracted to people of the same sex, they say don't act on it because that would be a grave sin. That doesn't alter the fact of their impuses.

So if this sister is using the mosque to pick up other women, the matter is clear, she should be excluded. But if she is using it for its true purpose, then surely we should hope she can mend her ways and receive true guidance. That would be better for all concerned.

Joe Bloggs · 17-07-2005, 05:57 PM

Jazakallah brother Yahya. I have been doing a lot of reading on this as was deeply pertubed.

Quote:

So if this sister is using the mosque to pick up other women, the matter is clear, she should be excluded. But if she is using it for its true purpose, then surely we should hope she can mend her ways and receive true guidance. That would be better for all concerned.

See that was my problem. She calls herself a muslim but then tells everyone she is a lesbian. She then says she prefers muslim women as she is a muslim herself!

That is disgusting not only is she openly rebelling against islam she thinks it's ok for her to 'prefer' muslim women as though it was some kind of right!

Quote:

If homosexuality is a Western concept so is homophobia. Both are rooted in the idea that there are two sorts of people, the heterosexual, who is "natural" according to Darwinian ideas and the homosexual who is "unatural". Surely we see acts as haram or halal, not classes of people. If you read the advice of scholars to people who are attracted to people of the same sex, they say don't act on it because that would be a grave sin. That doesn't alter the fact of their impuses.

Homophobia in the sense that, 'i hate all people with these impulses' is a western ideology. However homophobia as in, i hate the acts that homosexuals indulge in and the people who openly proclaim so as if their god-given right' is islamic! The story of Lut(As) is a good example.
Yes there are medically a few people (extremely rare) who are genuinely born with hormonal deficiencies but is not Allah aware of this? Thus muslims if afflicted with this problem should make it their personal jihad and control their urges. Inshalla they will be rewarded fo this.

Quote:

This is why Baro's post bothers me slightly. Would you be so quick to expose a brother who was cheating on his wife or having pre-marital sex. These things are no less haram. I

True however the problem with homosexuality is that the person is affecting everyone else. a gay walking into the brother's area immediately puts these brothers at risk of exposing to a non-mehram. The same if a lesbian was to walk into the sisters area. I don't know what her intentions are for coming to the mosque but i think regardless she should be banned due to her public proclamations and open manifestation of her nature. By making herself public she gives us the right to hold her to account.

solid_snake · 18-07-2005, 12:17 PM

I don't understand why programs such as Newsnight would invite this freak into a discussion about Islam when all she does is critisize how bad Islam is...

Joe Bloggs · 18-07-2005, 12:20 PM

Because she's everything they want to islam to be. Ridiculous and Pathetic.

Yahya · 18-07-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solid_snake

I don't understand why programs such as Newsnight would invite this freak into a discussion about Islam when all she does is critisize how bad Islam is...

Because they are outright hypocrites. Is Peter Tatchell their chosen spokesman on Christian affairs?

They accept the rights of Christians and Jews to differ with the liberal concensus on gay rights - but not us. If we even suggest that such things are opposed to Allah's plan, we become extemists.

And if a Muslim is an extremist who knows what else he might be up to?

hussein · 19-07-2005, 12:54 AM

having known many people in canada who know irshad manji or rather had known her previously i can say that this is a poisonous and sadly deluded woman. She used to present a programme about gay issues, she is a homosexual and she is very pro israel, thus making her an ideal representative of muslims.

The lesson for me is that all i have to say is that Ariel Sharon should get the nobel peace prize, and that having sex with animals is encouraged by islam and i will be famous as the media will be desperate to get me on as the modern face of islam.

Having read this womans book it seems to me that her early experiences in the madressa had not been good and from that she developed this evil ideology. On a point of caution she does have a few people who are muslims listening to her and we must all realise that her ideology of homosexuality and forgoing justice for israeli murder is as bad and as dangerous as the rubbish that comes out from zarqawi and bion laden, and we as muslims should be wary of the evil that she talks about rather than dismissing her.

abdulmojid · 19-07-2005, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

Because she's everything they want to islam to be. Ridiculous and Pathetic.

AS WR WB

advise her to be in the mosque is not appropriate (n'ouzubillah, she might be perving on the other sisters), advise her being lesbian might take her out of the fold of islam, advise her that homosexuality has no place in islam, advise her of the story of lut (as) in the quraan, and lastly sister, distance yourself from her, disassociate yourself from her.

i dont think telling other sisters she is lesbian is haraam (although refer it to a scholar) but i think u have to tell them for her own sake (perving on them will cause the lesbo great sin)

WS WR WB

Joe Bloggs · 19-07-2005, 01:30 AM

Quote:

advise her to be in the mosque is not appropriate (n'ouzubillah, she might be perving on the other sisters), advise her being lesbian might take her out of the fold of islam, advise her that homosexuality has no place in islam, advise her of the story of lut (as) in the quraan,

Jazakallah, at last some practical advice! But do i have to speak to her?

Hmmmm....maybe a letter....

Quote:

And lastly sister, distance yourself from her, disassociate yourself from her.

Don't worry the day she told me i nearly got myself killed as i hastily disassociated myself from her and ran across the road. I know it might sound a bit radical but you can understand my horror and digust as she told me after a week of knowing her and though she was always a bit over-feely/huggy type i didn't mind as she was a muslim. Even the thought of it makes me want to be sick!

Quote:

i dont think telling other sisters she is lesbian is haraam (although refer it to a scholar) but i think u have to tell them for her own sake (perving on them will cause the lesbo great sin)

Nice idea, (normally i ask my dad on a lot of issues as he is a mufti but i feel too embarrassed about this one) but i don't really know any scholars and even then they all tend to be male thus still very embarassing!

Manc · 19-07-2005, 03:31 AM

The best way to deal with haters such as Daniel Pipes, Irshad Manji, Right-Wing-a-Lings and the RAND Corporation I think is on the following site by showing them up for the crazy's they are:

http://www.maniacmuslim.com/Trouble_With_Haters.html

This is a good site if your looking for Muslim Humour:

http://www.maniacmuslim.com/Updates.html

Amal M · 19-07-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

There is a lesbian in my faculty who claims to be a muslim. I have no malice towards her Allah will punish her justly however she does occasionally turn up at the mosque. Now i don't feel comfortable taking off my hijab in front of her thus making wu'du very difficult. What is the ruling on this? I know non-muslims are welcome to the mosque but a lesbian walking into the sisters area just makes me uncomfortable. Also am i allowed to inform others about her nature as i'm sure many sisters are not aware or would this be back-biting? Some advice would be appreciated!

Dear Sister,

You are totally deluded! In fact, you talk about this other sister as though she was sick, when in fact you don't sound too well yourself. You want to know the Islamic ruling on being around another sister like yourself? Thats absurd! And yes, you will be guilty of backbiting if you decide to gossip about this woman with your self-righteous friends. Sister, you are the type of sister that needs to hijab her heart before you hijab your body.

UmmZakariya · 19-07-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Dear Sister,

You are totally deluded! In fact, you talk about this other sister as though she was sick, when in fact you don't sound too well yourself. You want to know the Islamic ruling on being around another sister like yourself? Thats absurd! And yes, you will be guilty of backbiting if you decide to gossip about this woman with your self-righteous friends. Sister, you are the type of sister that needs to hijab her heart before you hijab your body.

Amal that is uncalled for Joe is not back biting she is asking advice from people about this situation to attack her is this way and assume she is deluded, or gossipping and being self-righteous is ridiculous. This is her experience of this sister and she knows better than you.....so kindly stop the name calling.

Yahya · 19-07-2005, 04:13 PM

We must get through to the BBC that "Irshad" Manji is leading them up the garden path and that extreme views like hers (Zionism for one) only alienate Muslims and increase the influence of the Bakris of this world.

Real voices of moderation, like Tariq Ramadan are silenced so this self-hating rent-a-gob can spout her ill-informed drivel.

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=1997 to write to the Beeb.

16-07-2005, 04:56 AM	#1
IbnRushd Senior Activist Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 573 Rep Power: 25	Irshad Manji Quick question: this "expert" (wipes away tears from uncontrollable laughter) appeared on Newsnight and one other television programme this past week on British television. Was it Richard & Judy or some other daytime nonsense? Thanks. assalaamu alaekum

16-07-2005, 06:45 PM	#4
Joe Bloggs Veteran Campaigner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Drugworld, UK Posts: 1,156 Rep Power: 8	There is a lesbian in my faculty who claims to be a muslim. I have no malice towards her Allah will punish her justly however she does occasionally turn up at the mosque. Now i don't feel comfortable taking off my hijab in front of her thus making wu'du very difficult. What is the ruling on this? I know non-muslims are welcome to the mosque but a lesbian walking into the sisters area just makes me uncomfortable. Also am i allowed to inform others about her nature as i'm sure many sisters are not aware or would this be back-biting? Some advice would be appreciated! __________________ "Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer restrains from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah is aware of what you do." {The Noble Qur'an Al Ankaboot 29:45 } Last edited by Joe Bloggs; 16-07-2005 at 06:51 PM.

16-07-2005, 11:14 PM	#8
Joe Bloggs Veteran Campaigner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Drugworld, UK Posts: 1,156 Rep Power: 8	Jazakallah i was thinking along the same lines. Frankly if in front of a non-muslim woman it is advised to still observe hijab as they may not understand the islamic ettiquettes and therefore should speak of our appearance then i feel a professed lesbian most definitely constitutes a non-mehram thus observing hijab would be mandatory. Saying this however i was just wondering if anyone could provide me with evidence from quran or a hadith/fatwa etc as i don't want to ban her from the mosque just on a personal whim! __________________ "Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer restrains from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah is aware of what you do." {The Noble Qur'an Al Ankaboot 29:45 }

18-07-2005, 12:20 PM	#12
Joe Bloggs Veteran Campaigner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Drugworld, UK Posts: 1,156 Rep Power: 8	Because she's everything they want to islam to be. Ridiculous and Pathetic. __________________ "Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer restrains from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah is aware of what you do." {The Noble Qur'an Al Ankaboot 29:45 }

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16-07-2005, 06:48 AM	#2
UmmZakariya Veteran Campaigner Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: MPACUK-istan Posts: 2,929 Rep Power: 12	wasalaam, pls see: http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=1890 thanks

16-07-2005, 06:37 PM	#3
Faisal Probationary User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Manny!!! Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	i dont see how this lesbian can come on TV, she wants a new islam, she might aswell start a new sect. dozy thing think women should be given more rights! little does she kno and think homo's should be able to be gay and associates herself with salman rushdie!

16-07-2005, 06:58 PM	#5
Yahya Veteran Campaigner Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,602 Rep Power: 9	I think it would be back-biting. These thing are for Allah to judge and we are supposed to cover up the faults of others (even really big ones). You don't know who is or isn't a "lesbian". Even people who are married and live entirely within the accepted boudaries of Islam could be attracted to other women. In reality concepts like gay and straight are culturally defined and do not exist in Islam. People in Islam can do things which are haram or avoid doing them. But to define someone as a "lesbian" is to define them, as a person, as haram. That isn't possible in Islamic terms. We judge people by deeds not the instincts they cannot help.

16-07-2005, 11:03 PM	#7
barodate Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 2,542 Rep Power: 0	it wouldnt be backbiting. if i knew someone from the mosque was gay i would have him kicked out straight away. that simple. they have no place in islam or a place amongst us. like that kafir irshad manji who said on richard and judy: "to think the quran is the word of god is dangerous"

18-07-2005, 12:17 PM	#11
solid_snake Apprentice Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: London Posts: 54 Rep Power: 6	I don't understand why programs such as Newsnight would invite this freak into a discussion about Islam when all she does is critisize how bad Islam is...

19-07-2005, 12:54 AM	#14
hussein Senior Activist Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: in england Posts: 761 Rep Power: 9	having known many people in canada who know irshad manji or rather had known her previously i can say that this is a poisonous and sadly deluded woman. She used to present a programme about gay issues, she is a homosexual and she is very pro israel, thus making her an ideal representative of muslims. The lesson for me is that all i have to say is that Ariel Sharon should get the nobel peace prize, and that having sex with animals is encouraged by islam and i will be famous as the media will be desperate to get me on as the modern face of islam. Having read this womans book it seems to me that her early experiences in the madressa had not been good and from that she developed this evil ideology. On a point of caution she does have a few people who are muslims listening to her and we must all realise that her ideology of homosexuality and forgoing justice for israeli murder is as bad and as dangerous as the rubbish that comes out from zarqawi and bion laden, and we as muslims should be wary of the evil that she talks about rather than dismissing her.

19-07-2005, 03:31 AM	#17
Manc Moderator Maximus Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Manchester Posts: 1,965 Rep Power: 9	The best way to deal with haters such as Daniel Pipes, Irshad Manji, Right-Wing-a-Lings and the RAND Corporation I think is on the following site by showing them up for the crazy's they are: http://www.maniacmuslim.com/Trouble_With_Haters.html This is a good site if your looking for Muslim Humour: http://www.maniacmuslim.com/Updates.html

19-07-2005, 04:13 PM	#20
Yahya Veteran Campaigner Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,602 Rep Power: 9	We must get through to the BBC that "Irshad" Manji is leading them up the garden path and that extreme views like hers (Zionism for one) only alienate Muslims and increase the influence of the Bakris of this world. Real voices of moderation, like Tariq Ramadan are silenced so this self-hating rent-a-gob can spout her ill-informed drivel. http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=1997 to write to the Beeb.