satans demise....

[Rehaam]

Know we were discussing satan and how he could have come to the decision that he did - and we came to the conclusion that it must have been pure pride and arrogance - of course we know that - but sometimes I still get confused as to how he made the decision to go against Allah when he (satan) had loved Him so much (being an ArchAngel)....knowing that he would spend eternity in hell....

We decided that satan couldnt bear the thought of being told to bow down to Adam (PBUH) as Adam (PBUH) was made of mud where as Satan was made of a smokeless fire.....

.......so that means that satan didnt use his:

IQ - which would have told him that he would lose in the long run - ie eternity in hell

SQ - spiritual quotent - which would have told him that his love for Allah made it irrelevant whom Allah asked satan to bow before ( and possibly this is one of the reasons why the other Angels (PBUT) were happy to follow Allahs command)

satan used his EQ - emotional quotent - ie his emotions got the better of him and became so arrogant that he preferred eternal hell to being lower then the human.

And so satan uses our emotions to get us of track and get back at us- eg anger, pride, envy, hate laziness etc......because using SQ cant be wrong and using IQ cant be wrong - the only thing open to abuse is EQ....

What do you guys think???

[BHAI1]

subhanallah..

emotions..definetely..personal issue

[Abu-Aminah]

Spot on sis!, but even the use of the IQ does not help some people, and that is when evil desires/traits are so strong inside a person, than he could ponder over the consequences of his actions in the long run and yet the evil traits/desires could over power the fear of Allah/punishment in him and thus he would continue with his evil acts/lifestyle

Salaam

[Illuminate]

satan was not an angel but a jinn - this is why he didn't prostrate

18:50 - And when we told the angels 'Prostrate to adam' - they prostrated, except Ibless - He was of the jinn, so he broke his Lords command......

He didn't prostrate as he was a jinnee...

Angels don't have free will - they are total obiedience servants of the All Mighty - they don't suffer from arrogance - see 16:49-50



Also we must remember, that shaytan pride and arrogance didn't start when he was asked to prostrated - but well before. It is said there isn't a place in the seven heavens where shaytan didn't worship Allah (swt) - but all was done with pride. This is why when he was asked to prostrate all this pride came in - I am made from fire - why shall I bow down someone made from mud..

It was probably more emotional... - if one basis their knowledge and understanding on emotion alone this cause a person to behave irrationally - the person fails to use his intellect.....IMO

[Blueprint]

satan was not an angel but a jinn - this is why he didn't prostrate

18:50 - And when we told the angels 'Prostrate to adam' - they prostrated, except Ibless - He was of the jinn, so he broke his Lords command......

He didn't prostrate as he was a jinnee...

Angels don't have free will - they are total obiedience servants of the All Mighty - they don't suffer from arrogance - see 16:49-50



Also we must remember, that shaytan pride and arrogance didn't start when he was asked to prostrated - but well before. It is said there isn't a place in the seven heavens where shaytan didn't worship Allah (swt) - but all was done with pride. This is why when he was asked to prostrate all this pride came in - I am made from fire - why shall I bow down someone made from mud..

It was probably more emotional... - if one basis their knowledge and understanding on emotion alone this cause a person to behave irrationally - the person fails to use his intellect.....IMO

emotion is also good, we just need to find a balance and be "moderate"......thats the evil misunderstood word i used right? or was it modern erm...hmm lol

[Illuminate]

emotion is also good, we just need to find a balance and be "moderate"......thats the evil misunderstood word i used right? or was it modern erm...hmm lol

I agree, emotion can be a good thing - it is when you get so emotional attached to something, whether it is a cause, ideology, person etc..etc.. that you stop acting rationally and lose all sense of reasoning - add arrogance and pride to this - you have a deadly cocktail ...if that makes sense....


You made me confused bluey now

I remember posting an article, Emotion Is Not Enough
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=19348

[Talibah]

Assalamu alaykum. For Iblis it was a combination of things, but principally HASAD -envy/jealousy. He couldn't accept that the honour that was being granted to Adam (as).

This is why we should guard against this kind of jealousy; it brings out the worst in us burns up our good deeds.

[Saracen]

Know we were discussing satan and how he could have come to the decision that he did - and we came to the conclusion that it must have been pure pride and arrogance - of course we know that - but sometimes I still get confused as to how he made the decision to go against Allah when he (satan) had loved Him so much (being an ArchAngel)....knowing that he would spend eternity in hell....

We decided that satan couldnt bear the thought of being told to bow down to Adam (PBUH) as Adam (PBUH) was made of mud where as Satan was made of a smokeless fire.....

.......so that means that satan didnt use his:

IQ - which would have told him that he would lose in the long run - ie eternity in hell

SQ - spiritual quotent - which would have told him that his love for Allah made it irrelevant whom Allah asked satan to bow before ( and possibly this is one of the reasons why the other Angels (PBUT) were happy to follow Allahs command)

satan used his EQ - emotional quotent - ie his emotions got the better of him and became so arrogant that he preferred eternal hell to being lower then the human.

And so satan uses our emotions to get us of track and get back at us- eg anger, pride, envy, hate laziness etc......because using SQ cant be wrong and using IQ cant be wrong - the only thing open to abuse is EQ....

What do you guys think???

this is wrong in parts i think

[sapere aude]

Know we were discussing satan and how he could have come to the decision that he did - and we came to the conclusion that it must have been pure pride and arrogance - of course we know that - but sometimes I still get confused as to how he made the decision to go against Allah when he (satan) had loved Him so much (being an ArchAngel)....knowing that he would spend eternity in hell....

We decided that satan couldnt bear the thought of being told to bow down to Adam (PBUH) as Adam (PBUH) was made of mud where as Satan was made of a smokeless fire.....

.......so that means that satan didnt use his:

IQ - which would have told him that he would lose in the long run - ie eternity in hell

SQ - spiritual quotent - which would have told him that his love for Allah made it irrelevant whom Allah asked satan to bow before ( and possibly this is one of the reasons why the other Angels (PBUT) were happy to follow Allahs command)

satan used his EQ - emotional quotent - ie his emotions got the better of him and became so arrogant that he preferred eternal hell to being lower then the human.

And so satan uses our emotions to get us of track and get back at us- eg anger, pride, envy, hate laziness etc......because using SQ cant be wrong and using IQ cant be wrong - the only thing open to abuse is EQ....

What do you guys think???

There are so many aspects to what Satan/Iblees did by refusing to bow. What you have written is close to how it seems to me.

BUT Satan was NEVER an Archangel. This is a Christian belieif and I am not sure where they got it from. In his famous epic poem "Paradise Lost" (1667;1674 CE), an Englishman, John Milton, portrays Satan/Iblees as a fallen angel, but this is not the teaching of the Qur'an.

According to the Qur'an, Satan/Iblis is a Djinn/Jinn( Qur'an 18:50), and Djinns are made of a kind of smokeless fire(Qur'an 55:15).Satan himself is also quoted saying this too when saying he is made of better stuff than Adam, hence revealing that he is the first racist. This is how his arrogance and disobedience to Almighty God manifests itself.

Some translations into English make the assumption that Satan/Iblis was one of the angels, because they mistranslate "illa Iblis" as "except Iblis". This is wrong. What it means is "not so Iblees", or "but not Iblis".

Hence it should be clear that whereas the angels bowed, this other person, Iblis, did not bow. There are other places I have found in the Qur'an where this word "illa" means "but not" or "not so..." and these are places where to translate this word as "except" would make clear nonsense in context. Guidance regarding the identities of who bowed and didn't bow and which use of "illa" is meant is proven by the verse/ayat 18:50.

The use of "illa" in Arabic is far more fluid and flexible than equivalent English words. In English we have to choose between "except", "but not" or "not so", where in Arabic there is one word.

The angels are obedient to Allah. They may ask questions occasionally, but neverthless they are obedient. They are made of a kind of light. We find this in ahadith, but I am not sure of the reference.

Therefore Satan was never an angel or archangel.

[Rehaam]

Thankyou all for responding and many corrections...it was my misunderstnding that Iblis had a certain status even amongst the angels.....many thanks

Spot on sis!, but even the use of the IQ does not help some people, and that is when evil desires/traits are so strong inside a person, than he could ponder over the consequences of his actions in the long run and yet the evil traits/desires could over power the fear of Allah/punishment in him and thus he would continue with his evil acts/lifestyle

Salaam

So then if we consider that we have been touched by satan....does that mean that we have .........or can have ...........or can nuture the same characteristic? Of forgetting that our Lord is our Lord (otherwise why would we sin? It cannot be seen as a mistake but as a willing choice as we know what we are doing)

Is that the purpose of our kareen? (The jinn that tells us to do bad) A reminder from the outside (the kareen) calling/awakening the part of us thats been touched by satan on the inside (Im not sure when we are touched by satan at birth?) and so we respond...we forget...or overlook our duty.....???

[sapere aude]

Thank you all for responding and correction...it was my misunderstnding that Iblis had a certain status even amongst the angels.....many thanks



So then if we consider that we have been touched by satan....does that mean that we have .........or can have ...........or can nuture the same characteristic? Of forgetting that our Lord is our Lord (otherwise why would we sin? It cannot be seen as a mistake but as a willing choice as we know what we are doing)

Is that the purpose of our kareen? (The jinn that tells us to do bad) A reminder from the outside (the kareen) calling/awakening the part of us thats been touched by satan on the inside (Im not sure when we are touched by satan at birth?) and so we respond...we forget...or overlook our duty.....???

The Qur'an explains that we are naturally on the straight path, and that Satan openly declares war against us and says he will do his best to pull us off the straight path every which way, until Judgement Day. Allah permits him to try this, but provides us with His guidance through the natural world around us together with the teachings of His prophets.

Children are born pure, regardless of their ancestry.

The best analysis, is to read all seven accounts of the Angels and Satan's first encounter with Adam, AS our father and our first Prophet. I truly believe in the Qur'an we have the best and only workable perspective for understanding the situation we are in, in this life.

You will notice that Adam was already destined to go to Earth BEFORE he was told not to approach the tree.

Approaching the tree etc., was on a level with a child being told not to stick its fingers in the gas fire.

In this way Adam and his wife learned the difference between right and wrong, which they needed to know before they set out on their task on Earth.
Going to Earth is NOT a punishment, it is a task.

It is most important to put aside all preconceptions about this story that have been learned from the Jews and Christians over the centuries in various parts of the world..
We have here the ORIGINAL meaning of this story. We are so blessed in this. Let's stick to it.

Allah was NOT angry with them, when Adam and Eve made their mistake.

Admittedly some translations make it sound like that eg. "Get ye down" (or something) in Yusuf Ali, whereas " now go down" is nearer the mark.

The enmity was NOT between Adam and his wife.

It was between Adam and his wife on one side, and Shaitan on the other.

Eve/Hawah did NOT tempt Adam. Women are NOT cursed or responsible for what happened re: the tree.

Also look at the final two surahs in the Qur'an, for some idea of the variety of places that Shaitan can lurk! When we get a spiteful thought, for instance, that is Shaitan.

I Hope this helps. I was hoping to write a booklet about all this. It's really nice to see people discussing these issues.

Bhai 1 thinks it would be helpful if I informed you all of my advanced age!! OK I am of advanced age and have studied these things for many years. This means I've done a lot of thinking etc., but I don't claim to get everything right. We are all students, in my view, all our lives.

I'd be interested in constructive feedback - especially from Muslims.

[Rehaam]

Thank you S. A.

so the concept that we have been touched by satan is that true?

do we have a jinn giving us bad advice is that true?

Iblis can be anywhere - no contest

- we are messing about with our eternity - satan did it straight out .....in one blow What is it in our nature that makes us do what he did even though we dont do it straight out and in one go but dwindle between good and bad.... (some humans do - eg satanists?)

[Illuminate]

Strange - just the other day, I was thinking of starting a thread on the Jinn - I have couple of goods books on the jinn, which address the question you are asking.

Your qareen, is only able to touch you - which gives the person bad thoughts - as Allah tala also sends a angel which protects all humans from the qareen.

Anyway, the following site - which someone on this forum runs - has all the necessary articles on the jinn - read the part on All About Jinn - part 1 & 2. It is an informative and quiet precise - from the bits I have read..

http://www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/

[Rehaam]

Strange - just the other day, I was thinking of starting a thread on the Jinn - I have couple of goods books on the jinn, which address the question you are asking.

Your qareen, is only able to touch you - which gives the person bad thoughts - as Allah tala also sends a angel which protects all humans from the qareen.

Anyway, the following site - which someone on this forum runs - has all the necessary articles on the jinn - read the part on All About Jinn - part 1 & 2. It is an informative and quiet precise - from the bits I have read..

http://www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/

thanks

[BHAI1]

Assalamu alaykum. For Iblis it was a combination of things, but principally HASAD -envy/jealousy. He couldn't accept that the honour that was being granted to Adam (as).

This is why we should guard against this kind of jealousy; it brings out the worst in us burns up our good deeds.

absolutely..may allah save us

[faith28]

Rehaam, maybe if we asked ourselves what would we do if Allah (SWT) ordered us to bow down to an animal, say?


This is purely an exercise to consider what you would 'feel' inside as usually we are seen as above the animal kingdom likewise Satan saw himself above the humankind.

Doesn't it play on your pride inside? Pride will blind us to what Allah (SWT) orders us to do. This we must not let get in the way.

Also bear in mind that this is a lesson for humans to take on board as pride is a dangerous thing if used in excess.

[Rehaam]

Rehaam, maybe if we asked ourselves what would we do if Allah (SWT) ordered us to bow down to an animal, say?

I think thats an individual thing again depending on how they use their iq, sq and eq ie how its balanced.....eg me I would bow down to whatever Allah told me to bec I dont want to go to hell I have iq to make a plan for the future.....I have sq because I love Allah....so it doesnt matter what He tell s me to bow down to.....however my challanges are in those things which I think I may be forgiven in and that might be my down fall -

what would you do?

Doesn't it play on your pride inside? Pride will blind us to what Allah (SWT) orders us to do. This we must not let get in the way.

Indeed thats the point...that we share characteristics with the devil...

Also bear in mind that this is a lesson for humans to take on board as pride is a dangerous thing if used in excess.

can it be a good thing if not used in excess??

[faith28]

I think thats an individual thing again depending on how they use their iq, sq and eq ie how its balanced.....eg me I would bow down to whatever Allah told me to bec I dont want to go to hell I have iq to make a plan for the future.....I have sq because I love Allah....so it doesnt matter what He tell s me to bow down to.....however my challanges are in those things which I think I may be forgiven in and that might be my down fall -

what would you do?

Indeed thats the point...that we share characteristics with the devil...

can it be a good thing if not used in excess??

Pride has its place just like every emotion, in Islam.

[xris]

i have asked this question befor without result why does god tolerate satan if he is the cause of all evil.why are we to be tested being imperfect as we all are i cant see the point in testing imperfect products or is it way of weeding out the realy bad products from the production line,and sending the failures to the ovens.

[Rehaam]

Pride has its place just like every emotion, in Islam.

Where?

i have asked this question befor without result why does god tolerate satan if he is the cause of all evil.why are we to be tested being imperfect as we all are i cant see the point in testing imperfect products or is it way of weeding out the realy bad products from the production line,and sending the failures to the ovens.

I think its to give the present of an eternal heaven to that creation which recognised Allah to be Allah....and worship Him, fear Him, loved Him for it ..that doesnt actally take much...its just a feeling.....complete unity of IQ,SQ and EQ - maybe thats what true love is....something eternal...

the point?..........we all have the ability but not everyone has the desire....so they know of Him but dont love Him....and thats a choice....

Correct me if Im wrong does the Quran say be muslim or of the faithfull willingly or unwillingly - sure I read something like that - but am open to correction......

(just found something....
“There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (God) as an obedient slave.” (Quran 19:93)

“To Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly.” (Quran 3:83))

we cannot control the origin of our emotions thats a natural thing eg one person may have a stronger tendency towards others then someone else....but we can control our emotions by training (eg anger management) and with IQ.......