Quran and science

[pretty muslim]

Does somebody know exactly how much science is there in Quran?

How many discoveries have been made from Quran in total so far?

:confused:

[Illuminate]

Does somebody know exactly how much science is there in Quran?

How many discoveries have been made from Quran in total so far?

:confused:
well - there are reported to be more than 900 verses in the Holy Quran relating to relatively new scientific discoveries which were miraculously stated as facts over 1400 years ago:

These include things like:



the earth inner and outer layers
the shape of the world
the development of baby in the mothers womb and the three layers of the womb
DNA
expanding nature of the universe
the skin and the nerves
the orbital path of the sun and moon, nad light of the moon comes from the sun
the miracle of the physical property of iron
the rose Nepular, as viewed by hubble telescope
The types of rain cloud and each is described in detail, and its relationship to the evoluting shaped plant
the positioning of the stars, and how they effect the four seasons
the mountains how they anchor the earth
quran state the lowest point of earth
the bee and its honey
flowing of the sea's and rivers

and much more....

[sunilight]

hehe

i guess if you look at it from a muslim perspective it all there

from the world was created to the day it ends
and everything in between

birth and death, disease and cure, animals and plants, sea and land,

etc etc

its up to the people to quantify it all

but the best bit about the Quran is that the answers are already there to EVERYTHING!!!
we just got to come up with the questions

big up the mussie scientists

lets get together and solve the world

[sunilight]

How many discoveries have been made from Quran in total so far?

:confused:

so in answer to ur question.................................
...................................................................... ..


how many discoveries have been made that arent in the Quran?

[farooqachmad]

so in answer to ur question.................................
...................................................................... ..


how many discoveries have been made that arent in the Quran?

Never heard of anynbody making an invention from Koran. They just fool us.

[Yahya]

The lessons of the Qu'ran are for the welfare of your soul. If you wish to worship science please feel free. If you are right there will be no conseqences for you or me. If Islam is right you will burn in Hell for all eternity. We will see whose taking the greater risk.

[Unaiza]

Never heard of anynbody making an invention from Koran. They just fool us.


I think u mean discovery.

And thats not true.. Biologists found that fresh water and sea water do not mix, this was a hypothesis put forward by the muslims loooooooong ago, because of 'barrier between the waters' that Allah talks about in the Qur'an.

[farooqachmad]

I think u mean discovery.

And thats not true.. Biologists found that fresh water and sea water do not mix, this was a hypothesis put forward by the muslims loooooooong ago, because of 'barrier between the waters' that Allah talks about in the Qur'an.

When did bilogogists discover that fresh water and sea water do not mix? Did you ever see the river water going into the sea? Take a bottle of fresh water and try to mix it with a bottle of sea water. See what happens.

I'll sugest that we should always verify the facts before spreading the heresay or rumors.

[wajid2000]

here today gone tomorrow!!!!

something along those lines....what you think sunlight :D


why did pretty muslim get banned??

[farooqachmad]

The lessons of the Qu'ran are for the welfare of your soul. If you wish to worship science please feel free. If you are right there will be no conseqences for you or me. If Islam is right you will burn in Hell for all eternity. We will see whose taking the greater risk.

I 100% agree with you that lessons of Qu'ran are for the welfare of Muslims. Islam fully supports science but some people try to make fool of Muslims by keeping them away from science. They issue senseless statements about science. Nobdody worships science. Those people become better scientists who challenge the old theories rahter than blindly believing in them. We shouldn't be afraid in taking the risk to expose such people who make false statements about Qu'ran or science. Islam advises us to verify the facts to stop the nonsense statements from spreading into Muslims.

[sunilight]

When did bilogogists discover that fresh water and sea water do not mix? Did you ever see the river water going into the sea? Take a bottle of fresh water and try to mix it with a bottle of sea water. See what happens.

I'll sugest that we should always verify the facts before spreading the heresay or rumors.

what the sister means is that

plant and animal life that lives in the sea cant survive in the fresh water
and vica versa
and you can do certain things with fresh water that you cant do with sea water

as you well know

[sunilight]

I 100% agree with you that lessons of Qu'ran are for the welfare of Muslims. Islam fully supports science but some people try to make fool of Muslims by keeping them away from science. They issue senseless statements about science. Nobdody worships science. Those people become better scientists who challenge the old theories rahter than blindly believing in them. We shouldn't be afraid in taking the risk to expose such people who make false statements about Qu'ran or science. Islam advises us to verify the facts to stop the nonsense statements from spreading into Muslims.

who and where ?

the only thing muslims have a problem with is darwin
and maybe one or two other high profile sciencists
i never heard they were against to trying to put ppl against science

[farooqachmad]

what the sister means is that

plant and animal life that lives in the sea cant survive in the fresh water
and vica versa
and you can do certain things with fresh water that you cant do with sea water

as you well know

Well this is such a simple common sense. I don't think it needs a complicated scientific research to say that certain kind of sea fish can't live in river water or vice versa. But generally many kinds of fish survive in both kinds. Same goes with the plants. Therefore, nobody could make a statement that sea water can never mix with river water. Similarly, some animals can live in deserts but can't live in snows; whereas some animals can survive in both envoirnments.

[farooqachmad]

who and where ?

the only thing muslims have a problem with is darwin
and maybe one or two other high profile sciencists
i never heard they were against to trying to put ppl against science

Majority of scientists think that Darwin's theory is not correct.

Therefore, they found many flaws in it.

There's no final theory about the origin of life. Scientists discover many new startling facts when they work to prove the old theories like Darwin's wrong.

Therefore, we should not completely discard a theory until proved completely wrong.

We must keep challenging it. In this way we come across many new facts of life.

So the keyword in science is challenge the existing theory. Since we cannot challenge anything which is Qu'ran, therefore, Allah almighty didn't put science in Qu'ran.

The holy prophet advised Muslims to learn science from anywhere in the world even if they had to go to China. If all the science was already in

Qu'ran, then why would the holy prphet tell Muslims to go that far away? Many Kafir scholars had a lot of scientific knowledge.

Therefore, the holy prophet ordered Muslims not to kill them when they were caught as POWs in Badr. They were told to teach about their knowledge to
Muslims for their life.

If Muslims could easily learn science from Qu'ran, then why would they keep the kafir scholars as their teachers and guides?

Science is an ongoing process which constantly updating. If it's not updating, then it's not science.

Qu'ran on the other hand is final and cannot be updated. If it's updated, then it's not Qu'ran. I hope you understand what I mean.

[wajid2000]

Majority of scientists think that Darwin's theory is not correct.

Therefore, they found many flaws in it.

There's no final theory about the origin of life. Scientists discover many new startling facts when they work to prove the old theories like Darwin's wrong.

Therefore, we should not completely discard a theory until proved completely wrong.

We must keep challenging it. In this way we come across many new facts of life.

So the keyword in science is challenge the existing theory. Since we cannot challenge anything which is Qu'ran, therefore, Allah almighty didn't put science in Qu'ran.

The holy prophet advised Muslims to learn science from anywhere in the world even if they had to go to China. If all the science was already in

Qu'ran, then why would the holy prphet tell Muslims to go that far away? Many Kafir scholars had a lot of scientific knowledge.

Therefore, the holy prophet ordered Muslims not to kill them when they were caught as POWs in Badr. They were told to teach about their knowledge to
Muslims for their life.

If Muslims could easily learn science from Qu'ran, then why would they keep the kafir scholars as their teachers and guides?

Science is an ongoing process which constantly updating. If it's not updating, then it's not science.

Qu'ran on the other hand is final and cannot be updated. If it's updated, then it's not Qu'ran. I hope you understand what I mean.


im sorry i dont understand any of that.......am i just being thick???? :confused:

[Unaiza]

When did bilogogists discover that fresh water and sea water do not mix? Did you ever see the river water going into the sea? Take a bottle of fresh water and try to mix it with a bottle of sea water. See what happens.

I'll sugest that we should always verify the facts before spreading the heresay or rumors.

Your analogy just illustrates your level of ignorance about the subject. You will find in your bottle of water, to your utmost astomishment that those waters will separate, (the question is how would you "The Scientist" now identify which was which in the first place??)

The reason for separation of waters due to salinity levels affect the densities of fresh water and salt water.

Density of salt water is high and hence would be at the bottom of the sea, whereas fresh water is low, and would be at the bottom.

This is old news. Its called pycnocline.
link (http://www.fishbase.org/Glossary/Glossary.cfm?TermEnglish=pycnocline)

And the Quranice verse its mentioned in:

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed. (Surat al-furqan 25:53)

[PhoeniX]

The holy prophet advised Muslims to learn science from anywhere in the world even if they had to go to China. If all the science was already in

Qu'ran, then why would the holy prphet tell Muslims to go that far away?


This is very weak hadith. I would like to eat my hat, if you could provide the daleel/evidence for it, I will eat my hat.

[farooqachmad]

Your analogy just illustrates your level of ignorance about the subject. You will find in your bottle of water, to your utmost astomishment that those waters will separate, (the question is how would you "The Scientist" now identify which was which in the first place??)

The reason for separation of waters due to salinity levels affect the densities of fresh water and salt water.

Density of salt water is high and hence would be at the bottom of the sea, whereas fresh water is low, and would be at the bottom.

This is old news. Its called pycnocline.
link (http://www.fishbase.org/Glossary/Glossary.cfm?TermEnglish=pycnocline)




You make me laugh when you say that salt is soluble in sea water only but not in the river water, or the properties of salt change after it goes into sea water or the two waters are immissible with each other. Please mind that this is supposed to be a serious topic. You should post this kind of stuff in the Humor Zone.

[farooqachmad]

This is very weak hadith. I would like to eat my hat, if you could provide the daleel/evidence for it, I will eat my hat.

I don't know who made this hadeeth but surely I didn't. However, no Muslim can deny the fact holy prophet put a lot of emphasis on Muslims to learn from all kinds of sources of knowledge including the kafir scholars. Now don't tell me that the incident of Badr is also not true.

[barodate]

the china hadith is weak/fabricated in some cases so u cant proove it to be sahih

[farooqachmad]

the china hadith is weak/fabricated in some cases so u cant proove it to be sahih

So is the case with many other ahadith. Hadith is not the point of issue here. This hadith is quoted by many since long. It may or may not be true but it's overall impression cannot be denied. In contrast to this hadith, we neve come across any hadith which says that Muslims should never learn anything outside the Qu'ran. We're discussing the importance of knowledge or science. We cannot deny that holy prophet urged Muslims to search for knowledge and respect the real scholars even if they were kafirs.

[barodate]

So is the case with many other ahadith. Hadith is not the point of issue here.

then dont mention it


This hadith is quoted by many since long. It may or may not be true but it's overall impression cannot be denied.

it can be denied because its fabricated.


We cannot deny that holy prophet urged Muslims to search for knowledge and respect the real scholars even if they were kafirs.

well the proof u had has been proven fabricated so thats the end of that.

first : proove to me that the prophet has urged us to learn from kaafir "scholors"

second: the most important knowledge is islamic knowledge and u cant learn islam from kaafir. because u can not be a scholor or a sheikh if you are a kaafir.

[farooqachmad]

then dont mention it . it can be denied because its fabricated.

Well if we stop using the fabricated material then what we are left with (other than Qu'ran)?


first : proove to me that the prophet has urged us to learn from kaafir "scholors"



Do you mean to say that the lives of Kafir scholars were not spared by the holy prophet on the condition that each of them teach 10 Muslims? Obviously those kafirs were not detained to teach Qu'ran or islamiyat to Muslims. If your knowledge or common sense is that poor, then I can't make you believe that sun rises from the east or the earth is round. You must see some doctor. Maybe he can fix your problem.



second: the most important knowledge is islamic knowledge and u cant learn islam from kaafir. because u can not be a scholor or a sheikh if you are a kaafir.

This debate is not about which is the most important knowledge. It's about the importance of getting knowledge from sources other than Qu'ran.

[barodate]

Well if we stop using the fabricated material then what we are left with (other than Qu'ran)?

lmhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

oh man tell me ure joking! do you think that all the hadith are fabricated????




Do you mean to say that the lives of Kafir scholars were not spared by the holy prophet on the condition that each of them teach 10 Muslims? Obviously those kafirs were not detained to teach Qu'ran or islamiyat to Muslims. If your knowledge or common sense is that poor, then I can't make you believe that sun rises from the east or the earth is round. You must see some doctor. Maybe he can fix your problem.

they are not SCHOLORS you dopey thing. and that was because in those times there was very small amount of education and literacy. so the last resort was to rely on the kaafirs to teach the muslims. but now you do NOT have to be taught by a kaafir as education is spread everywhere. you dont have to go to kaafir unis to study medicine you can study it in muslim run unis.


This debate is not about which is the most important knowledge. It's about the importance of getting knowledge from sources other than Qu'ran.

well if the quran has an answer to something then you follow the quran fullstop. you do not follow something that contradicts the quran because that is kufr.

BUT if the quran doesnt answer something then you can follow something else.

it depends on the type of knowledge ure looking for.

[farooqachmad]

lmhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

oh man tell me ure joking! do you think that all the hadith are fabricated????

I can't say which ones are fabricated and which ones are original. Usually it's seen that if somebody doesn't want to agree to a point in which some hadith is quoted, he rejects it by saying it a very weak hadith. the same person quotes the same hadith to support his point in some other debate or some other ocassion.



they are not SCHOLORS you dopey thing. and that was because in those times there was very small amount of education and literacy. so the last resort was to rely on the kaafirs to teach the muslims. but now you do NOT have to be taught by a kaafir as education is spread everywhere.

In the first sentence you said they (kafirs) were not scholars, but in the next you said that the last resort to rely on kaafirs to teach the muslims. Obviously you don't mean iliterate kaafirs. Also these kaafir scholars were appointed not to teach Qu'ran or islamiyat but something else. This soemthingelse is what we're talking about. That this something is not in Qu'ran.



you dont have to go to kaafir unis to study medicine you can study it in muslim run unis.

The knowledge of medicine is not a final and rigid knowledge. It's constantly being updated with research which is being carried out in universitites and other medical institutions. The universities in Islamic countries teach only those things which their teachers learnt from foeriuniversities. the latest research and developement these teachers again go to the foreign universities. We can also make research departments in our universities but no single university or institution can do research for all medicinces. this is a joint effort. No matter what way they adopt in Islamic universities, they don't teach medicine from Qu'ran.




BUT if the quran doesnt answer something then you can follow something else.

it depends on the type of knowledge ure looking for.

Thank you for granting the permission to follow something else if Qu'ran doesn't answer something. That means you acknolwedge the fact that there are somethings that Qu'ran doesn't answer. I don't know why you react badly when I say the same thing. The topic of this thread also about the same issue that there're somethings that are not in Qu'ran. I hope you'd conclude this debate on a positive note.

[barodate]

I can't say which ones are fabricated and which ones are original. Usually it's seen that if somebody doesn't want to agree to a point in which some hadith is quoted, he rejects it by saying it a very weak hadith. the same person quotes the same hadith to support his point in some other debate or some other ocassion.

well i assure you i wont use that "hadith" ever again. if u want something sahih try the books like bukhari and muslim :rolleyes:


In the first sentence you said they (kafirs) were not scholars, but in the next you said that the last resort to rely on kaafirs to teach the muslims.

how is that a contradiction? kaafirs can not be islamic scholors... full stop.


That this something is not in Qu'ran.

you have any idea how stupid that sounds? how can a book teach u to read?




No matter what way they adopt in Islamic universities, they don't teach medicine from Qu'ran.

umm yes they do... because whether they like it or not there are hundreds of things in the quran which aid science. one example;
the stages of birth etc are given in the quran.



Thank you for granting the permission to follow something else if Qu'ran doesn't answer something.

you are welcome


That means you acknolwedge the fact that there are somethings that Qu'ran doesn't answer.

depends what you mean. if u have been searching as to what you should have for breakfast tomorrow then no u will not find it there.


that there're somethings that are not in Qu'ran.

Like?

[Illuminate]

This is very weak hadith. I would like to eat my hat, if you could provide the daleel/evidence for it, I will eat my hat.
Are you sure you want to eat your hat:

This hadith was narrated by: Ibn `Umar, Ibn `Abbas, Ibn Mas`ud, Jabir, and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, all through very weak chains.

The first to declare the "China" hadith forged seems to be Ibn al-Qaysarani (d. 507) in his Ma`rifa al-Tadhkira (p. 101 #118).

This grading was kept by Ibn al-Jawzi in his Mawdu`at

al-Suyuti in al-La'ali' (1:193),
al-Mizzi, al-Dhahabi in Talkhis al-Wahiyat
al-Bajuri's student Shams al-Din al-Qawuqji (d. 1305) in his book al-Lu'lu' al-Marsu` (p. 40 #49),
and notably by the Indian muhaddith Muhammad Tahir al-Fattani (d. 986) in his Tadhkira al-Mawdu`at (p. 17)
in which they declared it hasan (fair)

Hadith master Imam Nawawi - declared it weak

Al-Munawi, give's an excellent explanation of the hadith in his Fayd al-Qadir: Under the heading "Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim,"

btw - there is nothing wrong in narrating weak hadith as long as it does not contradict more sound hadith and the Quran.

[farooqachmad]

btw - there is nothing wrong in narrating weak hadith as long as it does not contradict more sound hadith and the Quran.

Even if it's not a hadith, we can still tell Muslims to go everywhere in search of good knowledge. There's nothing wrong in promoting knowledge in Muslims. No knowledge or science is bad knowledge. Those who stop Muslims from searching for new knowledge and they use various ahadith in their support, or those who stop Muslims from search by telling that all science is already in Qu'ran are not good leaders of Muslims. They don't want Muslims to interpret Qu'ran without their permission. If there's science in Qu'ran, then how can they interpret Qu'ran who never studied science in their madrassahs and who don't know what science is about?

[barodate]

Are you sure you want to eat your hat:

This hadith was narrated by: Ibn `Umar, Ibn `Abbas, Ibn Mas`ud, Jabir, and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, all through very weak chains.

The first to declare the "China" hadith forged seems to be Ibn al-Qaysarani (d. 507) in his Ma`rifa al-Tadhkira (p. 101 #118).

This grading was kept by Ibn al-Jawzi in his Mawdu`at

al-Suyuti in al-La'ali' (1:193),
al-Mizzi, al-Dhahabi in Talkhis al-Wahiyat
al-Bajuri's student Shams al-Din al-Qawuqji (d. 1305) in his book al-Lu'lu' al-Marsu` (p. 40 #49),
and notably by the Indian muhaddith Muhammad Tahir al-Fattani (d. 986) in his Tadhkira al-Mawdu`at (p. 17)
in which they declared it hasan (fair)

Hadith master Imam Nawawi - declared it weak

Al-Munawi, give's an excellent explanation of the hadith in his Fayd al-Qadir: Under the heading "Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim,"

btw - there is nothing wrong in narrating weak hadith as long as it does not contradict more sound hadith and the Quran.


Mawdoo(fabricated),Invalid/Rejected Hadeeth No: 8
"Seek knowledge even if it be to China"

Related by Ibn Adee (2/207)m Abu Nu’aym in ‘Akhbaar Asbahaan’ and others via many routes of narration, and all of them adding the words "for indeed seeking knowledge is an obligatory duty upon all Muslims."

Ibn al-Jawzee mentions this and then quotes Ibn Hibbaan saying, "invalid/rejected, it has no basis" ‘al-Mawdoo’aat’ (1/215)]

Adh-Dhahabee also endorsed the above words of Ibn Hibbaan, [‘Tarteeb al-Mawdoo’aat’ of Adh-Dhahabee (pg. 52 no. 111)] and likewise as-Sakhaawee [‘Maqaasid al-Hasanah’ (pg. 86 no. 125)]

Al-Albaanee declares this hadeeth to be mawdoo (fabricated) [‘Da’eef al-Jaami as-Sagheer’ (no’s 1005-1006)]

In summary, the above hadeeth is related by a group of trustworthy narrators without the words "even if it be to China" and a few narrators who are deemed weak; liars; abandoned by the scholars narrate this additional wording. So the Ahaadeeth with the additional wording is fabricated, but without is hasan (good). [See ‘Silsilah ad-Da’eefah’ (1/600 no. 416) for detail.]

[sunilight]

Well this is such a simple common sense. I don't think it needs a complicated scientific research to say that certain kind of sea fish can't live in river water or vice versa. But generally many kinds of fish survive in both kinds. Same goes with the plants. Therefore, nobody could make a statement that sea water can never mix with river water. Similarly, some animals can live in deserts but can't live in snows; whereas some animals can survive in both envoirnments.

but the Quran wasnt writen today was it
it was writen in a time when people new jack

[sunilight]

Your analogy just illustrates your level of ignorance about the subject. You will find in your bottle of water, to your utmost astomishment that those waters will separate, (the question is how would you "The Scientist" now identify which was which in the first place??)

The reason for separation of waters due to salinity levels affect the densities of fresh water and salt water.

Density of salt water is high and hence would be at the bottom of the sea, whereas fresh water is low, and would be at the bottom.

This is old news. Its called pycnocline.
link (http://www.fishbase.org/Glossary/Glossary.cfm?TermEnglish=pycnocline)

And the Quranice verse its mentioned in:

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed. (Surat al-furqan 25:53)

you clever girl.........................
:)
the Quran and Unaiza taught me something new about science

:p

[farooqachmad]

but the Quran wasnt writen today was it
it was writen in a time when people new jack

Who says that Qu'ran was written today?

Egyptian and Greek civilizations were already very old by then. There was a plenty of scientific development in those civilizations and Arab scholars knew a lot about the ancient science. Warqa bin Nofil (elder brother of Hazrat Khadeeja r.a) was a learned Kafir scholar. Hazrat Mohammad SAWA used to spend a lot of time in his company and listened about amazing discoveries of the ancient civilizations before revealation. He was inspired by the scientific knowledge a different scholars. Therefore, he always wished his ummah to learn good knowledge of science from various active civilzations like China and make progress with the power of knowledge.

[Unaiza]

Difficult of Muslims to make progress if they dont believe facts that disclose secrets of Allah's creation revealed in the Quran.

[farooqachmad]

Difficult of Muslims to make progress if they dont believe facts that disclose secrets of Allah's creation revealed in the Quran.

Muslims have an added advantage because they've Qu'ran which supports science. They already made a leaping progess in science and many other fields when they took up the task seriously about 1000 years ago. Now it looks like that they're not serious about their own progress. That's why they've given up the research and devlopment of science and other subjects on the warnings and misguidance of their religious scholars who have no idea what modern sciences are. Some brilliant Muslims study modern subjects only for the sake better jobs in western organizations. In this way they benefit others in their progress in return for handsome salaries. Western countries have gone far ahead of us by expoliting all kinds of talent available to them. Whereas we've pushed ourselves to the dead ends of fundamentalism by following blindly to the illogical and non sense people whose mission is to keep us backwards.

[barodate]

Now it looks like that they're not serious about their own progress. That's why they've given up

no, there are still alot of discoveries in countries such as saudi, jordan, egypt etc. but because we dont live there we dont hear of them.


the research and devlopment of science and other subjects on the warnings and misguidance of their religious scholars who have no idea what modern sciences are.

no, face the fact that some modern science is jus not to be tangled with and clearly contradicts islam.


Some brilliant Muslims study modern subjects only for the sake better jobs in western organizations. In this way they benefit others in their progress in return for handsome salaries.

believe it or not, muslim countries do have their own prominent medical universities.


Western countries have gone far ahead of us by expoliting all kinds of talent available to them.

they also steal loads of money from millions of people each year. American "discoveries" are charged at really high prices so people struggle to pay so they can accelerate in every field and charge even higher prices thus giving them more income.


Whereas we've pushed ourselves to the dead ends of fundamentalism by following blindly to the illogical and non sense people whose mission is to keep us backwards.

we havent done anything like u say,,,

http://www.iime.org/database/africa/egypt.htm (directory of medical schools in egypt)

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/local/scisoc/mccormack/ (womens college in saudi)

http://www.cags.org.ae (center of arab genomic studies)

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B430533D-4189-4E74-B481-E5D02E9CB41C.htm (new mammal discovered in indonesia)

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/629F6FD1-308A-412B-812F-8745D662B3A1.htm (ooh look ure bumchums in the west need middle east help)

i hope thats enough

[urbanmax]

no, face the fact that some modern science is jus not to be tangled with and clearly contradicts islam.

they also steal loads of money from millions of people each year.

You say too many things based on few facts.

And not only that, many of your points are factualy wrong, and some common sense or basic research would put them right. A lack of both is not a good thing.

[Suhail]

Muslims dont do as much we should in terms of the sciences and edication in general.

Some discoveries annd inventions may be found amongst Muslims in the modern age but the number and importance of these in general are TINY and almost insignificant when compared to the amount carried out by non-Muslim scientists in virtually every field especially medecine.

The Qura'an does have many scientific miracles in it such as the mixing of the seas one that has been argued about a lot here. However that does not mean Muslims should limit their scientific knowledge to just the Quraan, as Muslims we should go and learn the sciences - whether from Muslims or non-Muslims and also carry out research and find new discoveries and knowledge.

[Suhail]

no, there are still alot of discoveries in countries such as saudi, jordan, egypt etc. but because we dont live there we dont hear of them.



These are few compared to the western world...Muslims need to educate themselves more. Many Muslim countries have high illiterate populations, although this is being countered in many counties it is not enough. The majority of Muslim countries have proportionaly fewer people going into higher education compared to western countries ..it is no surprise that most of the progress in the sciences ar done in the western world and not in the Muslim world.



no, face the fact that some modern science is jus not to be tangled with and clearly contradicts islam.


Some may be against Islam but that doesnt mean sciences should be abondoned altogether...we should go into other fields.

Also, out of curiosity could you give me a few examples





believe it or not, muslim countries do have their own prominent medical universities.



I agree there are many Muslim states with great universities but the western world has many many more that do much more reseach and fmake more breakthroughs.Yet, it was the Muslims who created the concept of the university, in the past Muslims were great in the sciences but not so much anymore. My point is not to put Muslims or Islam down but to say that as Muslims we need to improve.




they also steal loads of money from millions of people each year.
American "discoveries" are charged at really high prices so people struggle to pay so they can accelerate in every field and charge even higher prices thus giving them more income.



That may be so for some. or even for many, but they still do make the discoveries dont they? They eventually help people dont they? It is unfair to say all their discoveries are solely for profit. They may start out expensive but eventually as they make even newer discoveries they become relatively cheap. For example vaccines are relatively cheap, discovered and produced in the West. Polio vaccine for example has almost been eradicated in the entire world by vaccinations in all countries including poor ones





we havent done anything like u say,,,

http://www.iime.org/database/africa/egypt.htm (directory of medical schools in egypt)

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/local/scisoc/mccormack/ (womens college in saudi)

http://www.cags.org.ae (center of arab genomic studies)

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B430533D-4189-4E74-B481-E5D02E9CB41C.htm (new mammal discovered in indonesia)

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/629F6FD1-308A-412B-812F-8745D662B3A1.htm (ooh look ure bumchums in the west need middle east help)

i hope thats enough



NO IT IS NOT ENOUGH

Muslims have made discoveries but for the past 2 or 3 hundreds years or so we can been taken over by the west who have made FAR more technical and medical progress than we have.
My point is not make Muslims look stupid or dumb becuase we have talent and brains we have shown that in the past, but to say that we dont use it.


Also that stupid comment of your about west bumchums is ignorant and stupid. Are we all bumchums of the west if we respect and use western science? because we all use it. How many times have you had a vaccine? antibiotics? or taken a pregnancy test :D

[Suhail]

You say too many things based on few facts.

And not only that, many of your points are factualy wrong, and some common sense or basic research would put them right. A lack of both is not a good thing.

Totally agree with you....Barodate maybe YOU need to go out a learn some science so that you actually understand that half of what you posted above is nonsense!!!!!! :D

[farooqachmad]

These days it’s so unfortunate that educated Muslims don't think like scientists or educated people. They think more like an uneducated religious scholar or Mr. Ilm Din. An educated person always verifies the facts before accepting or rejecting a new finding but today's Muslims get approval about scientific findings from uneducated or semi educated religious scholars before believing in them. They reject most of the useful findings on the recommendations of their religious or spiritual leaders who know nothing about science. Educated Muslims don't make an attempt to verify the truth or facts.

Basically there's no conflict between Qu'ran and science. Both lead us towards realities. The religious professionals interpret Qu'ran for some specific vested interests. It's these misinterpretations that are endangered when science uncovers some realities. Therefore, whenever you find a new discovery or finding (which is said to be contradicting with Qu'ran,) then never believe the statement blindly. Open your eyes and verify first to see if the scientific discovery is true are not. If it's true then be assured that it cannot contradict with Qu'ran. The verses of Qu'ran for the same point could look different because of some different reference or context which you cannot find out because much of the history relating to that point had been lost or distorted by religious historians for various vested interests of different times.

[barodate]

These are few compared to the western world

no , if you havent realised the western world is far more richer than the muslim world.


Muslims need to educate themselves more.

on what basis?? have you ever attended muslims schools in arab countries? they have some of the best doctors, physicians etc. you dont have any proof of as to WHY except for some piddling rivalry with the kaafirs.


The majority of Muslim countries have proportionaly fewer people going into higher education compared to western countries

no ure thinking of the muslims in UK. if asia is so backwards why is it that india has the best research into computer science? That the best doctors are arab doctors? You have no basis for those figures.


it is no surprise that most of the progress in the sciences ar done in the western world and not in the Muslim world.

uh says who? I jus posted up loads of research facilities in the middle east. Just because you havent heard of discoveries in muslim countries doesnt mean they dont exist!


Some may be against Islam but that doesnt mean sciences should be abondoned altogether...we should go into other fields.

we have... its called weaponry lol

hell even the mujahideen can make explosives which rip apart hummers because they are highly qualified engineers from scraps. they can counter your bumchum west so-called research in an instant. Ayman Zawahiri is a doctor himself :D Osama bin laden specialised in construction, and you can read articles about that in robert fisk articles where he explains that osama binladen used specialised methods of construction in somalia to build highways, schools, hospitals which the US COULDNT because they didnt know how to counter somalias immense heatwaves.



Also, out of curiosity could you give me a few examples

cloning, haram, theres an example.


I agree there are many Muslim states with great universities but the western world has many many more that do much more reseach and fmake more breakthroughs.

THere will ALWAYS be more universities in the western world. you know why?? because the western world is much BIGGER.. duh :rolleyes: .


Yet, it was the Muslims who created the concept of the university, in the past Muslims were great in the sciences but not so much anymore.

proove it instead of chatting nonsense.


My point is not to put Muslims or Islam down but to say that as Muslims we need to improve.

stop regurgitating the same advice over and over again cos then it jus becomes *****ing. There is always room for improvement. u wont ever reach the "end" of science. Its like the universe, always expanding. and i learnt that in a muslim school ;)


It is unfair to say all their discoveries are solely for profit.

have u never seen a michael moore film? lol their health service is NONSENSE because all the discoveries are bought out by huge enterprises just so they can sell it for ridiculously high prices.


They may start out expensive but eventually as they make even newer discoveries they become relatively cheap.

proove it.


For example vaccines are relatively cheap, discovered and produced in the West.

and what of the vaccines that they send to third world countries and then tax the government?


Polio vaccine for example has almost been eradicated in the entire world by vaccinations in all countries including poor ones

last time i heard those poor countries are getting poorer because they have to pay the west back.


Muslims have made discoveries but for the past 2 or 3 hundreds years or so we can been taken over by the west who have made FAR more technical and medical progress than we have.

yes because they have more money, more people. Education isnt just on economic factors but geographical factors. Yes geographical factors. Even though saudi arabia is such a huge country it only has a population of 26,417,599 while UK is puny but has 60,441,457 and USA has 295,734,134.


My point is not make Muslims look stupid or dumb becuase we have talent and brains we have shown that in the past, but to say that we dont use it.

you still have to proove that.


Also that stupid comment of your about west bumchums is ignorant and stupid. Are we all bumchums of the west if we respect and use western science?

i never said that. first learn to read, then re-read what i wrote.


How many times have you had a vaccine? antibiotics? or taken a pregnancy test

im sorry suhail i know you jus came out of prison but thats not how things work here :rolleyes:

[barodate]

today's Muslims get approval about scientific findings from uneducated or semi educated religious scholars before believing in them.

proof??



Basically there's no conflict between Qu'ran and science. Both lead us towards realities.

what are you a murji'??? there ARE conflicts in some cases. you think cloning is halal?


The religious professionals interpret Qu'ran for some specific vested interests.

proove that aswell


It's these misinterpretations that are endangered when science uncovers some realities. Therefore, whenever you find a new discovery or finding (which is said to be contradicting with Qu'ran,) then never believe the statement blindly.

depends which discovery you are referring to. because there are some in which it is haram to take part in.


The verses of Qu'ran for the same point could look different because of some different reference or context which you cannot find out because much of the history relating to that point had been lost or distorted by religious historians for various vested interests of different times.

are you saying that people have changed the quran? or there are errors or distortions in tafseer?

[farooqachmad]

QUOTE=barodate]proof??[/quote}

Educated Muslims don't make prominent scientists these days. Muslim graduating in science subjects also talk more like religious scholars than real scholars.


what are you a murji'??? there ARE conflicts in some cases. you think cloning is halal?
This issue was raised by Orthodox Christian Church because cloning poses threat to many false beliefs created by the Church. In Qu'ran there's no objection to carry out experiments as long as these're not hazardous.


proove that aswell

Different interpretations of Qu'ran done by different ulema for the same issue is enough proof. Ulema are different because they work for different vested intersts otherwise if they're ulema of just one Qu'ran then their interpretations wouldn't have been different.


depends which discovery you are referring to. because there are some in which it is haram to take part in.

Who told you which discovery is haram? Did you check Qu'ran for yourself? Anything which discovers or reveals the truth cannot be haram in Qu'ran. If you still insist on this point then you're saying that Qu'ran doesn't support the truth.



are you saying that people have changed the quran? or there are errors or distortions in tafseer?

Because nobdoy can change Qu'ran, therefore they invented tafseer. You can see more than one billion different tafseers of Qu'ran in the market. No two resemble each other. Some differe slightly but most of them differ too much. Some differ even upto 180 degrees.

[barodate]

Educated Muslims don't make prominent scientists these days. Muslim graduating in science subjects also talk more like religious scholars than real scholars.

i said PROOVE it not to chat crap


This issue was raised by Orthodox Christian Church because cloning poses threat to many false beliefs created by the Church. In Qu'ran there's no objection to carry out experiments as long as these're not hazardous.

hahahahaa riiiiiiiight....

according to sheikh salih munnajid:

(1) That human cloning using the two methods mentioned, or any other method that leads to reproduction of human beings is haraam

(2) If there is any transgression of the shar’i ruling mentioned above, then the consequences of that should be discussed to explain the shar’i rulings concerning such cases.

(3) All scenarios in which a third party may be added to the marital relationship are forbidden, whether that involves a womb (surrogacy), eggs, sperm or cells for cloning.

(4) It is permissible in Islam to use the technology of cloning and genetic engineering in cases of germs and microscopic creatures, plants and animals, within the limits and guidelines of sharee’ah, for the purpose of serving interests and warding off harm.




Because nobdoy can change Qu'ran, therefore they invented tafseer. You can see more than one billion different tafseers of Qu'ran in the market. No two resemble each other. Some differe slightly but most of them differ too much. Some differ even upto 180 degrees.

oh my GOD... either you are someone pretending to be a muslim or you are really thick... there are atleast 4 main tafseers out there

imam ibn kathir

at tabari

sayyid qutb

and imam ghazali

there are atleast 30 or so tafsirs out there... and non of them are majorly different from each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir

[farooqachmad]

i said PROOVE it not to chat crap

What proof? A proof is given for something what proof I can give for nothing?

If you differ from me then give the names of a few well known scientists who are Muslims. Tell me what new theories or theorms they discovered?


hahahahaa riiiiiiiight....

according to sheikh salih munnajid:

What's this hahahahaa riiiiiiiight....? Where you learnt these manners? They don't teach such things in schools. Only madrasah grads talk like this.

So this is another proof that educated Muslims talk like uneducated mullahs.

I already told you to quote what quran says about something. If you're properly educated, then don't tell us what a mullah says about science. I can give you the links of Christian websites from where these mullahs copy this kind of stuff and paste with small modifications. If you don't believe me, then type the words 'clone', 'church' in any search engine and see the results.


In this way you further confirm that educated Muslims can't talk better than mullahs.

Please change these bad habbits. We're already very nototrious for our illiterate attitude.



oh my GOD... either you are someone pretending to be a muslim or you are really thick... there are atleast 4 main tafseers out there

imam ibn kathir

at tabari

sayyid qutb

and imam ghazali

there are atleast 30 or so tafsirs out there... and non of them are majorly different from each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir

In the first line you say that there're only 4 tafseers. At the end you say there're 30 and non of them are majorly different from them. If they're not different then why they write the different? If there're slight difference, then why can't they resolve their differences in the light of Quran and Sunnah. They don't let us talk if we differ from them on any point by saying it haraam to differ with a religious scholar but they differ with other religious scholars.

You've admitted about 30 already. Now visit a few different Islami book shops. You'll change this number yourself, I am sure. I gave you a very conservative figure of 1 billion. It could be much higher than that because every mullah who knows how to write his name, likes to write a new tafseer in his name.

[PhoeniX]

Are you sure you want to eat your hat:

This hadith was narrated by: Ibn `Umar, Ibn `Abbas, Ibn Mas`ud, Jabir, and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, all through very weak chains.

The first to declare the "China" hadith forged seems to be Ibn al-Qaysarani (d. 507) in his Ma`rifa al-Tadhkira (p. 101 #118).

This grading was kept by Ibn al-Jawzi in his Mawdu`at

al-Suyuti in al-La'ali' (1:193),
al-Mizzi, al-Dhahabi in Talkhis al-Wahiyat
al-Bajuri's student Shams al-Din al-Qawuqji (d. 1305) in his book al-Lu'lu' al-Marsu` (p. 40 #49),
and notably by the Indian muhaddith Muhammad Tahir al-Fattani (d. 986) in his Tadhkira al-Mawdu`at (p. 17)
in which they declared it hasan (fair)

Hadith master Imam Nawawi - declared it weak

Al-Munawi, give's an excellent explanation of the hadith in his Fayd al-Qadir: Under the heading "Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim,"

btw - there is nothing wrong in narrating weak hadith as long as it does not contradict more sound hadith and the Quran.


Erhem, yeah. THANKS *Rahim*

:rolleyes:

Yes it is weak Hadith, but the China thing, is fabricated.

That was my point.

Erm, do I still hav to eat my hat?

[barodate]

What proof? A proof is given for something what proof I can give for nothing?

If you differ from me then give the names of a few well known scientists who are Muslims. Tell me what new theories or theorms they discovered?

ure judging solely on how many theorms they discovered? ure retarded


What's this hahahahaa riiiiiiiight....? Where you learnt these manners? They don't teach such things in schools. Only madrasah grads talk like this.

yep...........



I already told you to quote what quran says about something. If you're properly educated, then don't tell us what a mullah says about science. I can give you the links of Christian websites from where these mullahs copy this kind of stuff and paste with small modifications. If you don't believe me, then type the words 'clone', 'church' in any search engine and see the results.


oh im sorry i didnt know u were on the same level as sheikh salih munajjid (hafidhahullah) i bet you havent even heard of this sheikh. majority of scholors deem it haram but u and ure mu'tazilah ways will continue to try and counter it with ure akal. the sheikhs know more about islamic matters than you that is why they are called sheikhs.


In the first line you say that there're only 4 tafseers. At the end you say there're 30 and non of them are majorly different from them. If they're not different then why they write the different?

no in the first line i said there are four MAIN tafseer.


If there're slight difference, then why can't they resolve their differences in the light of Quran and Sunnah.

because different scholors sometimes give different verdicts, but tafsirs are never majorly different unless u are looking at the tafseer of someone who is in an entirely different sect.


You've admitted about 30 already. Now visit a few different Islami book shops. You'll change this number yourself, I am sure. I gave you a very conservative figure of 1 billion. It could be much higher than that because every mullah who knows how to write his name, likes to write a new tafseer in his name.

wallahi i seriously think you are retarded. 1 billion??? i actually thought you were exaggerating. and do you know how LONG it takes to write a tafsir?? secondly if its not from a prominent scholor people usually dont follow it.. infact i dont know anyone who follows a tafsir of someone who isnt a prominent islamic scholor.

[farooqachmad]

the sheikhs know more about islamic matters than you that is why they are called sheikhs.

Why don't you like to get direct guidance from Qu'ran. Is it written in Qu'ran that shekikhs know more about Islam? That may be you personal judment. I don't argue on this. Suppose this is correct for a moment. Then on what basis you suppose that they know more about science too?


because different scholors sometimes give different verdicts, but tafsirs are never majorly different unless u are looking at the tafseer of someone who is in an entirely different sect.

wallahi i seriously think you are retarded. 1 billion??? i actually thought you were exaggerating. and do you know how LONG it takes to write a tafsir?? secondly if its not from a prominent scholor people usually dont follow it.. infact i dont know anyone who follows a tafsir of someone who isnt a prominent islamic scholor.

Here you're justifying your contradiction. Explaining why different tafseer were written. I said the same thing in plain words that there are a lot many different tafseers of Qu'ran; but you try to catch your same ear by going a long way over. On top of that you call me names that suit you better.

So from now on please don't try to misdirect the topic. Nobody is interested what some sheikhs says about science or what a tafseer says. We're here to discuss why Muslims have stopped producing good scientists like they did in their golden history even when a lot of them still study science subjects.

[barodate]

Why don't you like to get direct guidance from Qu'ran.

because u need a scholor to interpret it!


Is it written in Qu'ran that shekikhs know more about Islam?

no but if u are a sheikh it means that u have studied arabic. memorized the quran.. memorized a certain number of hadith and studied under scholors. u are completely loopy. if you no more than a sheikh then why dont you be one??? my god is anyone listening to his ridiculous statements??? apparently we are all on the same level as imam ibn kathir and ibn hajar asqalani!


Suppose this is correct for a moment.

it IS correct!!! its standard islam!!


Then on what basis you suppose that they know more about science too?

i never said they do :confused:


Here you're justifying your contradiction.

no its not a contradiction because there is a difference in the MAIN amount of tafsir and a difference in the TOTAL number of tafsir.


Explaining why different tafseer were written. I said the same thing in plain words that there are a lot many different tafseers of Qu'ran; but you try to catch your same ear by going a long way over. On top of that you call me names that suit you better.

ok tht doesnt make sense


So from now on please don't try to misdirect the topic. Nobody is interested what some sheikhs says about science or what a tafseer says. We're here to discuss why Muslims have stopped producing good scientists like they did in their golden history even when a lot of them still study science subjects.

ok anyone can clearly see u lead the topic astray but i thought id follow and verbally "smite their neck wherever you find them" :D and you asked me about which scientific progress is haram and i told you from a sheikhs ruling (someone whose ruling actually matters) and you have showed me NO PROOF. i have asked proof on loooooads of matters but you havent answered ANY of them successfully.

[TheEH]

OK erm, cool debate, and I agree with barodate, but I would just like to say, farooqachmad, I hope you arnt insulting scholars. You talk very down of them, and I think you should be very careful, you may not agree with them, but it isnt for you then to put them down, perhaps it would be better to say nothing at all...

Theres a guy that grows up, doesnt get the best of education, if an education at all, grows up living with his parents, has manners, gets married, works, has children, teaches them manners, but all the while he never gives up Islam, he is the best Muslim he can be...

And there is another guy, who gets his great education, brilliant university, brilliant job, minting it, gets the wife and kids, but is kinda obsessive over his work. But this dude, his Islam isnt the best, and perhaps you could call him, a Muslim by name, he prays on the odd occasion, maybe drinks and goes partying sometimes too...

Now, in your opinion, who is going to be more favourable in Allah's eyes?

Im not saying an education isnt important, it is very important, but, if it at the expense of your deen, at the expense of your Iman, then I dont think it is worth it, at all, because without Islam, you are a nobody in Allah's eyes...

:)

[Illuminate]

Erhem, yeah. THANKS *Rahim*

:rolleyes:

Yes it is weak Hadith, but the China thing, is fabricated.

That was my point.

Erm, do I still hav to eat my hat?
nah - you can eat a box of chocolates instead :D

[farooqachmad]

OK erm, cool debate, and I agree with barodate, but I would just like to say, farooqachmad, I hope you arnt insulting scholars. You talk very down of them, and I think you should be very careful, you may not agree with them, but it isnt for you then to put them down, perhaps it would be better to say nothing at all...

Theres a guy that grows up, doesnt get the best of education, if an education at all, grows up living with his parents, has manners, gets married, works, has children, teaches them manners, but all the while he never gives up Islam, he is the best Muslim he can be...

And there is another guy, who gets his great education, brilliant university, brilliant job, minting it, gets the wife and kids, but is kinda obsessive over his work. But this dude, his Islam isnt the best, and perhaps you could call him, a Muslim by name, he prays on the odd occasion, maybe drinks and goes partying sometimes too...

Now, in your opinion, who is going to be more favourable in Allah's eyes?

Im not saying an education isnt important, it is very important, but, if it at the expense of your deen, at the expense of your Iman, then I dont think it is worth it, at all, because without Islam, you are a nobody in Allah's eyes...


You seem to be very loical and tolerant which is good. No education is bad if it's education. You know what I mean. All kinds of scientific reaserach is done for the purpose of learning and none is done for sake of evil. Learning has no boundries and limits. Islam does not stop us from learning and discovering new things. I am not against the real scholars. I personally know a few of those who work on an agenda to stop Muslims from playing a leading role in the research and development of science. They get paid for this. I was trying to tell my friends that we've to be very careful in declaring anything un-islamic. Some of our firends put the label of non Muslim on anybody who doesn't believe blindly like them. We need to read Quran ourselves to find out the fact. If we can't study Qu'ran and understand it, then we shouldn't call ourselves as Muslims.

I undermine some religious scholars but for some reason. Please go to any madrasah where these scholars are made. Observe them secretly to note what kind of talent is selected, what they're taught, how they're caught, what extra carricular activites are done with them. It's out of these students who grow up into big sheikhs and alims of din. We learn second hand din from them but never attempt to learn directly from Qu'ran. Who stops us? These madrasah graduated sheikhs by telling us that Qu'ran is not something simple and straight. They teach us their crooked version. Please don't put all the blame on me if I evaluate them correctly. First look at the depth where the Muslim ummah has been led to by these great sheikhs of Islam and then praise their capabilites.

[barodate]

do you have any proof of your claims? or even any experience??? i mean are you even gonna address the fact that at one poitn u signed on as a female under the nickname pretty_muslim and now ure a male? who exactly are you? and i doubt very much you are a muslim

[farooqachmad]

do you have any proof of your claims? or even any experience???

I don't make any claims. I am only giving my opinion that Muslims should learn science with an open mind. Educated Muslims shouldn't get afraid to learn when they're threatened by uneducated alims. It's because of the psychological pressure of uneducated leadership that Muslim Ummah is far behind other nations in spite of their talent and natural resources. Other powers are benefiting from our talent and resources. I don't know why you oppose the breaking of these false barriers.

[sunilight]

I don't make any claims. I am only giving my opinion that Muslims should learn science with an open mind. Educated Muslims shouldn't get afraid to learn when they're threatened by uneducated alims. It's because of the psychological pressure of uneducated leadership that Muslim Ummah is far behind other nations in spite of their talent and natural resources. Other powers are benefiting from our talent and resources. I don't know why you oppose the breaking of these false barriers.

no one is
ppl who frequent this board have degrees in science and engineering and wot not

why do you have the belief or opionion that Educated Muslims are afraid to learn as they're threatened by uneducated alims. and because of the psychological pressure of uneducated leadership that Muslim Ummah is far behind other nations in spite of their talent and natural resources.

[TheEH]

They teach us their crooked version. Please don't put all the blame on me if I evaluate them correctly. First look at the depth where the Muslim ummah has been led to by these great sheikhs of Islam and then praise their capabilites.

Give me an example of this crooked version...

:)

[farooqachmad]

no one is
ppl who frequent this board have degrees in science and engineering and wot not

But you've to tell that they've degrees in science and enigneering. Why their words don't tell?


why do you have the belief or opionion that Educated Muslims are afraid to learn as they're threatened by uneducated alims. and because of the psychological pressure of uneducated leadership that Muslim Ummah is far behind other nations in spite of their talent and natural resources.
We both agree that they're talented, they've resources, and they're far behind other nations. You know my opinion about the leadership. What's your? If you think that our leadrship is the also not bad then who is responsible for this pathatic condition?

Don't put the blame of our failures on outsiders as we usually do.

[sunilight]

But you've to tell that they've degrees in science and enigneering. Why their words don't tell?


We both agree that they're talented, they've resources, and they're far behind other nations. You know my opinion about the leadership. What's your? If you think that our leadrship is the also not bad then who is responsible for this pathatic condition?

Don't put the blame of our failures on outsiders as we usually do.

look mr... i just dont understand you at all
you flit between talking about them and us outside uk people and inside uk people just like that - your too confusing
ok look i live in uk
i was born in uk
i consider uk is my home
i dont call any other country my home
i dont know the politics of any other country
i havenet chatted with anyone holy from anywhere
no one ever said i shouldnt be an engineer or scienctist

in fact i am soft eng with an interest in pyshics, AI and math
noone ever told me not to be
if they did i would tell them to shut up
this is what i do at work
this is how i put food on my table
and this is how i get my rocks off
i belive all sceince leads to God

i agree other countries have rubbish leaders

muslims in uk have degrees in sci and eng and math etc etc
muslims in uk implement their academic skills into there jobs
we dont have this problem your talking about

where are you from?
which country do you live iin?
what country are you talking about?
what are you talking about?
what do you do?

on this board we have many scienctists and geeks
we love science and we love Islam
we did our science with our parents permission without getting banished from the community
so what you say cant be true can it
otherwise we would be part of a secret undergound muslim science club
pretending we are going to study religous studies at uni
but getting on a different bus when mommy and daddy werent looking and going to study science

[Unaiza]

Absolutely Sunilight!

I dont understand what you saying anymore farooqachmed.

I dont think science base muslims ARE led by alims. Infact i havent come across any contradictions in science.. there is much speculation.. but thats what science is about.. thinking and hypothesising and testing...

:thinking:

[farooqachmad]

look mr... i just dont understand you at all
you flit between talking about them and us outside uk people and inside uk people just like that - your too confusing
ok look i live in uk
i was born in uk
i consider uk is my home
i dont call any other country my home
i dont know the politics of any other country
i havenet chatted with anyone holy from anywhere
no one ever said i shouldnt be an engineer or scienctist

in fact i am soft eng with an interest in pyshics, AI and math
noone ever told me not to be
if they did i would tell them to shut up
this is what i do at work
this is how i put food on my table
and this is how i get my rocks off
i belive all sceince leads to God

i agree other countries have rubbish leaders

muslims in uk have degrees in sci and eng and math etc etc
muslims in uk implement their academic skills into there jobs
we dont have this problem your talking about

where are you from?
which country do you live iin?
what country are you talking about?
what are you talking about?
what do you do?

on this board we have many scienctists and geeks
we love science and we love Islam
we did our science with our parents permission without getting banished from the community
so what you say cant be true can it
otherwise we would be part of a secret undergound muslim science club
pretending we are going to study religous studies at uni
but getting on a different bus when mommy and daddy werent looking and going to study science


I'm pleased to know that you're a talented Muslim from UK.
I also feel very happy when I hear about other successful Muslims in UK as well as in other countries.
As I said in my previous post that there's no shortage of talent and qualification in Muslims. In addition to this Muslim countries are rich in natural resources too. But I feel very bad when I see the overall condition of Muslims which is very pathetic. Don't you think that we should have been in some leading position?

There must be some reason for this bad state of affairs. Therefore, it's time we take a critical look at our approach. I don't think we'd become non-Muslims if we criticise ourselves. Among many other drawbacks one of the draw back is that we don't tolerate any criticism. We immediately expell the person from the cricel of Islam who tries to say something differnt. Let alone criticsim.

We need to change this attitude. Let's discuss various topics with an open mind. Let's adopt the habbit of debate on various vital issues. I give my opinion on the basis of my observation. I may not be right, but I am at least different from the crowd which is heading towards more backwardness. We've to change our direction somehow or the other. We've to apply our talent and scientific knowledge to change our direction from downwards to upwards. We should learn good lessons from our past, but shouldn't dream to live in it. We should live in our present and look towards our future. To see the future, we need to think like thinkers do, do some research and guide our people. We're not doing this. We've left the process of research, thinking and guidance to the religious professionals who are not qualified for this. They're good in religious matters but we give everything in their hands including the descisions about science about which they know nothing. On the matters regarding science we trust in them more than we trust our scientists. We blind say that all scinece is in Quran without verifying. Our holy prophet never said so. This is our alims who claim this. We believe in alims ignoring the clear cut sayings of our holy prophet about aquiring the real world knowledge.

[sunilight]

As I said in my previous post that there's no shortage of talent and qualification in Muslims. In addition to this Muslim countries are rich in natural resources too. But I feel very bad when I see the overall condition of Muslims which is very pathetic. Don't you think that we should have been in some leading position?

There must be some reason for this bad state of affairs. Therefore, it's time we take a critical look at our approach. I don't think we'd become non-Muslims if we criticise ourselves. Among many other drawbacks one of the draw back is that we don't tolerate any criticism. We immediately expell the person from the cricel of Islam who tries to say something differnt. Let alone criticsim.

this is going off topic... thats why your posts are so confusing



We need to change this attitude. Let's discuss various topics with an open mind. Let's adopt the habbit of debate on various vital issues. I give my opinion on the basis of my observation. I may not be right, but I am at least different from the crowd which is heading towards more backwardness.

that is a sweeping genralisation no here in this forum or uk is going backwards
i am sure many other countries arent too... but i cant really say


On the matters regarding science we trust in them more than we trust our scientists. We blind say that all scinece is in Quran without verifying. Our holy prophet never said so. This is our alims who claim this. We believe in alims ignoring the clear cut sayings of our holy prophet about aquiring the real world knowledge.

i dont think we do..... well we dont..... where do u live it might make your argument make more sense to us... cus you dont sound like ur speaking from uk

[barodate]

doesnt sound like hes speaking from planet earth!

[farooqachmad]

this is going off topic... thats why your posts are so confusing
The topic is about Quran and Science. Isn't it?
My point here is to discuss how much science Muslims know, and they can't benefit themselves from their knowledge of science as a nation? I think it's well within the topic.


that is a sweeping genralisation no here in this forum or uk is going backwards
i am sure many other countries arent too... but i cant really say
I never said that uk is going backwards. uk is not a Muslim country. I'm talking about Muslim countries that are not moving as fast as they could. They depend upon the development of the developed countries. They buy, borrow or beg technology from the developed nations. Muslims in uk are certainly moving forwards because they sit in a boat (uk) which is moving with application of modern knowledge.


i dont think we do..... well we dont..... where do u live it might make your argument make more sense to us... cus you dont sound like ur speaking from uk
I'm talking about the general attitude of the educated Muslims. Only a few are sure that all of the science is not in Qu'ran or we can't learn science from Qu'ran or from religious scholars but majority of educated Muslims is confused about science and Qu'ran.

I'm definitely not speaking from uk. I was born and raised in Pakistan. I did my graduation in Chemical Engineering from Lahore Pakistan with distinction. Currently I live in USA. I was a member of various organizations in Lahore that worked for the promotion of education particularly the science education. One of those organizations holds science festivals on national level annually in the national museum of science and technology, Lahore. You can see the details of the science festival at the following link.

Science Festivals in Lahore (http://www.nmst.org.pk/)

The science competitions in the National Science Museum are organized by an NGO. I'm still a member of this group. Debate on various educational and science issues also take place in this group in which leading scientists and scholars take part. I had the opportunity to attend those sessions while I used live in Lahore.

[wajid2000]

doesnt sound like hes speaking from planet earth!



im getting the same feeling :D

[wajid2000]

The topic is about Quran and Science. Isn't it?
My point here is to discuss how much science Muslims know, and they can't benefit themselves from their knowledge of science as a nation? I think it's well within the topic.


I never said that uk is going backwards. uk is not a Muslim country. I'm talking about Muslim countries that are not moving as fast as they could. They depend upon the development of the developed countries. They buy, borrow or beg technology from the developed nations. Muslims in uk are certainly moving forwards because they sit in a boat (uk) which is moving with application of modern knowledge.


I'm talking about the general attitude of the educated Muslims. Only a few are sure that all of the science is not in Qu'ran or we can't learn science from Qu'ran or from religious scholars but majority of educated Muslims is confused about science and Qu'ran.

I'm definitely not speaking from uk. I was born and raised in Pakistan. I did my graduation in Chemical Engineering from Lahore Pakistan with distinction. Currently I live in USA.

[e.


you know something i dont want to know about science ......in fact i find it very boring.......i drive a truck for a living .......not much need for science.



what you dont think delveloped countries are in debt as well, you dont think usa, britain owe money to other nations??

for a person that's got a distinction in whatever....you dont seem to know much.

[farooqachmad]

you know something i dont want to know about science ......in fact i find it very boring.......i drive a truck for a living .......not much need for science.

.

Good for you. Don't waste your time for something you don't need. Why you should bother for science or anything else. Everybody should bother for one's own living. This is a very wise thinking. Don't educate your children in science or at all. Teach them how to drive a truck. I hope they'll also make good living. I'll also advise my kids to learn something like truck driving for their living. All Muslims should follow your example for a happy living. Let it be their problem who owe anything to others. Why should we bother for others then?

[sunilight]

okay well if you had EXPLICITLY satated that you are talking about pakistan
then we might have understood you better

what is the point about talking about muslim scientists on a uk forum going on like muslim scientists are all backwards and expect us not to think you are talking about UK muslims

GEES MAN THIS IS UK FORUM....

[wajid2000]

Good for you. Don't waste your time for something you don't need. Why you should bother for science or anything else. Everybody should bother for one's own living. This is a very wise thinking. Don't educate your children in science or at all. Teach them how to drive a truck. I hope they'll also make good living. I'll also advise my kids to learn something like truck driving for their living. All Muslims should follow your example for a happy living. Let it be their problem who owe anything to others. Why should we bother for others then?



look dont talk to me like im some dog muck off your shoe........you think because i drive a truck i must natually be thick.....you stupid man......ive been to school, college, and even went to uni .....but i found there was more to life then sitting on my backside in a class room.....

you have come on this site like your some superior person with a graduation in engineering from pakistan.....spewing on about science and mosques and when some have asked you questions.....you bleeding change topics and start on something else.....dont think much of your education if you can not even answer a few questions in detail.


and what has my children got to do with anything you moron.....i tell you something i have never been so angry on this site before.......it's a good job we are not face to face. :mad:

[wajid2000]

okay well if you had EXPLICITLY satated that you are talking about pakistan
then we might have understood you better

what is the point about talking about muslim scientists on a uk forum going on like muslim scientists are all backwards and expect us not to think you are talking about UK muslims

GEES MAN THIS IS UK FORUM....


yes but he has a engineering certificate from pakistan

[sunilight]

yes but he has a engineering certificate from pakistan

yeh but how we supposed to know he is talking about pakistan unless he says he is
our default is uk not pakistan

[farooqachmad]

yeh but how we supposed to know he is talking about pakistan unless he says he is
our default is uk not pakistan

No I'm not talking from Pakistan. I'm in USA now. Because this forum is going worldwide and many Muslims in other countries who read it are developing some misconceptions about science in their mind. Therefore, viewers from all over the world should take part in the debate. It'd better if more scientist join the debate. Description of science from the paryer leaders or truck drivers is not enough.

[sunilight]

No I'm not talking from Pakistan. I'm in USA now. Because this forum is going worldwide and many Muslims in other countries who read it are developing some misconceptions about science in their mind. Therefore, viewers from all over the world should take part in the debate. It'd better if more scientist join the debate. Description of science from the paryer leaders or truck drivers is not enough.

so you have this problem in usa do you?
interesting

ok well i would also like to point out that even einstin was a simple clerk before he became one of the greatest scientists ever

a janitor invented the hoover ;)

so its abit patronizing to say that descriptions of science from truckdriver is not enough

after all arent they the ppl your trying to reach

have you ever heard of the saying "preaching to converted" there is no point in having a discussion unless your willing to except the views from the truck drivers and prayer leaders

dont you think?

[wajid2000]

No I'm not talking from Pakistan. I'm in USA now. Because this forum is going worldwide and many Muslims in other countries who read it are developing some misconceptions about science in their mind. Therefore, viewers from all over the world should take part in the debate. It'd better if more scientist join the debate. Description of science from the paryer leaders or truck drivers is not enough.


the fact that you obtained your qualification from pakistan.......this is very debatable :rolleyes:

[farooqachmad]

so you have this problem in usa do you?
interesting

ok well i would also like to point out that even einstin was a simple clerk before he became one of the greatest scientists ever

a janitor invented the hoover ;)

so its abit patronizing to say that descriptions of science from truckdriver is not enough

after all arent they the ppl your trying to reach

have you ever heard of the saying "preaching to converted" there is no point in having a discussion unless your willing to except the views from the truck drivers and prayer leaders

dont you think?


When was the time Einstein was a clerk? Please check the following link to make sure what you say about him.
Life of Einstein (http://www.google.com/search?q=einstin&client=netscape-pp&rls=com.netscape:en-US)

I don't know which janitor you're talking about. Vaccum clear invention is a different story. Hubert Cecil Booth, a British engineer invented the first vaccum cleaner. He received a British patent for a vacuum cleaner on August 30th 1901. For details see this link Invention of Vaccum Cleaner (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blvacuum.htm)
However, being a clerk or janitor is no disqualification to explain science. It's the attitude of some people who learn science but say why should they bother about science when they make good living by driving a truck in uk. Thereore they consider their opinion is superior to any scientist from a poor country. All people have the right to give their opinion about science even if it's negative. I never object to it. What I say is that if people who really know science part in this discussion, then we can also know what scinece can do for us. Unfortunately, many Muslims who learnt science also talk against science. Some of them work as scientists and some of them do odd jobs. I believe that even a janitor could invent the hoover if he/she has the scientific approach. Unfortunately, our scientists don't invent because they think maybe it's unislamic.

[sunilight]

When was the time Einstein was a clerk? Please check the following link to make sure what you say about him.
Life of Einstein (http://www.google.com/search?q=einstin&client=netscape-pp&rls=com.netscape:en-US)

I don't know which janitor you're talking about. Vaccum clear invention is a different story. Hubert Cecil Booth, a British engineer invented the first vaccum cleaner. He received a British patent for a vacuum cleaner on August 30th 1901. For details see this link Invention of Vaccum Cleaner (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blvacuum.htm)


can you please use google correctly before instructing me to do so
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=com.netscape%3Aen-US&q=einstein+clerk+patent&btnG=Search

eistien was a clerk

and the vacumm cleaner was invented by a janiotor
we have adverts on tv about it all the time

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=janitor+inventor+vacuum&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official

not everyone wants to be a scientist
and even few want to be a scientist in a muslim country
i presume thats why you moved to the usa

we need truck drivers
we need nurses
we need street cleaners
we need bakers
we need cooks
we need weather girls
we need authors

we need muslims in all jobs not just the ones you deem to be suitable or worthy

i need wajid2000 to be a truck driver
so he can driver the 10000000 terabyte super computer to my lab so i can do all my crazy scientific modelling with it

and you are contridicting yourself again

I don't know which janitor you're talking about. Vaccum clear invention is a different story. Hubert Cecil Booth, a British engineer invented the first vaccum cleaner. He received a British patent for a vacuum cleaner on August 30th 1901. For details see this link
A janitor invented the hoover because of the scientific approach. Unfortunately, our scientists don't invent because they think maybe it's unislamic.

you do know a hoover and vacuum cleaner are the same thing dont you?

[farooqachmad]

the fact that you obtained your qualification from pakistan.......this is very debatable

I also have the honor of teaching at John Hopkins Unviersity which is one of the top 10 in USA.

Is that debatable too?

Many Pakistani doctors and engineers work on responsible positions in USA. It's because of their Pakistani educational background that Pakistanis are rated among the respectable communities in USA. I don't know about the kind of impression Pakistanis have created about themselves in the UK.

[barodate]

I also have the honor of teaching at John Hopkins Unviersity which is one of the top 10 in USA.

Is that debatable too?

Many Pakistani doctors and engineers work on responsible positions in USA. It's because of their Pakistani educational background that Pakistanis are rated among the respectable communities in USA. I don't know about the kind of impression Pakistanis have created about themselves in the UK.

ill tel u whats debateable... first you signed up as a female member now ure a male member... first pretty_muslim now some dude called farooq

[sunilight]

I also have the honor of teaching at John Hopkins Unviersity which is one of the top 10 in USA.
.

great stuff
what do you research?
do you have any publications?
have you got a uni homepage so i can see some of your papers?

[farooqachmad]

can you please use google correctly before instructing me to do so
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=com.netscape%3Aen-US&q=einstein+clerk+patent&btnG=Search

eistien was a clerk

and the vacumm cleaner was invented by a janiotor
we have adverts on tv about it all the time

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=janitor+inventor+vacuum&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official

not everyone wants to be a scientist
and even few want to be a scientist in a muslim country
i presume thats why you moved to the usa

we need truck drivers
we need nurses
we need street cleaners
we need bakers
we need cooks
we need weather girls
we need authors

we need muslims in all jobs not just the ones you deem to be suitable or worthy

i need wajid2000 to be a truck driver
so he can driver the 10000000 terabyte super computer to my lab so i can do all my crazy scientific modelling with it

and you are contridicting yourself again


you do know a hoover and vacuum cleaner are the same thing dont you?


Look at the links you provided once again and compare with the ones I mentioed. Then make a statement.

I never said anything bad to the truck driver. He said I am happy driving a truck. I said good to him. Everybody has the right to work where one feels easy. Other professions are also important. But discouraging others to improve with the knowledge of science is not good.

[farooqachmad]

great stuff
what do you research?
do you have any publications?
have you got a uni homepage so i can see some of your papers?

I wish I could but I'm not supposed to show my identity. Maybe at a later stage when we know more about each other, then we'd exchage our personal information through private emails. There're some people like barodate etc whose aim is to attack the personalities. Therefore, it's important to hide your identities.

[wajid2000]

i need wajid2000 to be a truck driver
so he can driver the 10000000 terabyte super computer to my lab so i can do all my crazy scientific modelling with it





hey it's on way......... :D

[sunilight]

I wish I could but I'm not supposed to show my identity. Maybe at a later stage when we know more about each other, then we'd exchage our personal information through private emails. There're some people like barodate etc whose aim is to attack the personalities. Therefore, it's important to hide your identities.

i dont think that we will be able to able to that but i just wondered what you were doing ...... as a muslim sci/eng

[wajid2000]

I wish I could but I'm not supposed to show my identity. Maybe at a later stage when we know more about each other, then we'd exchage our personal information through private emails. There're some people like barodate etc whose aim is to attack the personalities. Therefore, it's important to hide your identities.



this is not a chat room were we exchange personal details and meet up for a date.............sunlight did not ask for your number.......but details of your work...if any......

it seems you dont understand english

[sunilight]

Look at the links you provided once again and compare with the ones I mentioed. Then make a statement.

I never said anything bad to the truck driver. He said I am happy driving a truck. I said good to him. Everybody has the right to work where one feels easy. Other professions are also important. But discouraging others to improve with the knowledge of science is not good.

i am afraid that this is where we depart
i feel i can no longer engage in conversation with you
i am guessing your responses are designed to provoke a reaction

as you contridict yourself constantly and wind me up
for example you said when was eintein a clerk
and you provided me with a google search link to back up your claims
i said that einstein was a clerk then provide you with google link to proove my claim
then you responded by asking me to look at your links and then make a statement

when every normal person in the worl... even truck drivers know that einsteine was a patent clerk

anyway this is just one of many examples where i feel you are trying to provoke me
or a the least engage me in no direction conversations

therefore i will be longer conversing with you
i shall be interacting with you in a moderator only capacity

please check you personal messages to see the warning i sent you earlier today
thank you

[farooqachmad]

this is not a chat room were we exchange personal details and meet up for a date.............sunlight did not ask for your number.......but details of your work...if any......

it seems you dont understand english

I already gave details of my efforts in promoting the science eduation in Pakistan that are relevant to this topic. Nobody else has provided even that much on the forum.First read those and discuss if you find something useful in it. Why do you want to jump to a higher level all of a sudden especially when you've no interest in science? I'd be delighted to see what you think about importance science for Muslims? If there's no interest for you in this debate, then relax. You don't need my personal details. I'm not moving recently.

[wajid2000]

it seems sunlight is right in what you are about ........you dont really have a clue on what is going on.....except that you and science are one, and any other muslim is off course.......

so im following suit.........it's end ex........out :eek:

[Unaiza]

To engage with this person is more than futile. He/she is denial about many things, and lacks the articualtion with which to converse in an effective manner on this forum.

Please can members treat this person as the troll he/she is. And DONT feed it any longer. Wajid2000 your offence is noted. Feel free to make it an official one.

[farooqachmad]

i am afraid that this is where we depart
i feel i can no longer engage in conversation with you
i am guessing your responses are designed to provoke a reaction

as you contridict yourself constantly and wind me up
for example you said when was eintein a clerk
and you provided me with a google search link to back up your claims
i said that einstein was a clerk then provide you with google link to proove my claim
then you responded by asking me to look at your links and then make a statement

when every normal person in the worl... even truck drivers know that einsteine was a patent clerk

anyway this is just one of many examples where i feel you are trying to provoke me
or a the least engage me in no direction conversations

therefore i will be longer conversing with you
i shall be interacting with you in a moderator only capacity

please check you personal messages to see the warning i sent you earlier today
thank you


The links you provided Einstein try to show that Einstein was nothing more than a patent office clerk; whereas he started his carrier as a teacher of Mathematics. He could have worked as a clerk during his studies but that was not his regular job.

I don't know exactly what's your agenda on this discussion forum. What you guys want to promote? and who you work for? You're using the name of Islam but support every kind of evil under cover of this name. I don't understand your purporse of putting your own words into my mouth. In your personal threat letter to me you wrote some objectional words and related to those to me. Can you show where I used those words? This kind of attitude clearly indicates that there's some hidden agenda.

[sunilight]

loooooooooooooooooooool

[farooqachmad]

loooooooooooooooooooool

Your attitude tells that you're not one person. You work as a team. All of you're specially trained extremists who know how to twist the facts and fool Muslims. The way you backup each other matches the method some experts who commit many crimes by exploiting the name of Islam. . Inshallah I'll not let you cause an another embarassment for Muslims.

[sunilight]

In your personal threat letter to me you wrote some objectional words and related to those to me. Can you show where I used those words? This kind of attitude clearly indicates that there's some hidden agenda.

As a moderator of this forum it is my responsiblity to ensure everyone adheres to the rules...............

here is a copy of the pm i sent you

can everyone else read it and see if there is anything threatening about it...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salams

Please can you read forum rules and find out why you have broken them by posting posts and not maintaining your dialog in a fashion that is NOT appropraite for this forum, in particular I am concerned that you are provoking the other members by not suffienctly backing your your claims of Mullah sexual abuse and other claims you have made. this sort of flaming will not be tolerated and you shouldnt enter into a discussion unless you can conduct yourself in a mannor that is in line with the forum rules.

Please dont do it again

And please recognise this as a first warning that will count towards a banning if future rules are broken.

Thank You
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[farooqachmad]

As a moderator of this forum it is my responsiblity to ensure everyone adheres to the rules...............

here is a copy of the pm i sent you

can everyone else read it and see if there is anything threatening about it...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salams

Please can you read forum rules and find out why you have broken them by posting posts and not maintaining your dialog in a fashion that is NOT appropraite for this forum, in particular I am concerned that you are provoking the other members by not suffienctly backing your your claims of Mullah sexual abuse and other claims you have made. this sort of flaming will not be tolerated and you shouldnt enter into a discussion unless you can conduct yourself in a mannor that is in line with the forum rules.

Please dont do it again

And please recognise this as a first warning that will count towards a banning if future rules are broken.

Thank You
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know what you're going to prove now. You clearly sent me a warning that I've provoked other memebers. You went to the extent of saying that I used the word sexual abuse. You deliberately ignored how other people had been provoking me. Some of them had been calling me as non-Muslim and abusing me by saying qadiyani. You took only my words as offensive even when I was politely responding to their allegations. None of the offending member was warned.

I know what you're upto and what you want to spread here.

[sunilight]

if someone attacks me in public (ie accusing me of threatening them)
i will defend myself in public (ie posting the supposed threatening pm)

[Unaiza]

Enough of this conversation. It is entirely :Offtopic:

I have asked all to refrain from interacting with the Troll. This includes Moderators as well.

[barodate]

ure wish is my command :D

[Musab]

Firstly, farooqachmed is not the same person as pretty_muslim.

Secondly, this is a sensitive discussion, where people (from whichever background) have varying and passionate beliefs. Can everyone respect that and stop goading each other into making personal attacks.

M

[suspect]

i think there is alot of science in the Quran

[farooqachmad]

i think there is a lot of science in the Quran

Just thinking like this is not enough. Although there's a lot of evdidence in Qu'ran which supports science but practically you can't make anything out of this science. This science is good only for those who don't want to create something.

[Suhail]

Just thinking like this is not enough. Although there's a lot of evdidence in Qu'ran which supports science but practically you can't make anything out of this science. This science is good only for those who don't want to create something.

The Quraan was not meant to be a scientific book. It is the obligation of Muslims to gain ilm - knowledge and to also help others. iF those in conjunction mean that Muslim should 'create', investigate or discover in the scientific or medical fields ... than that is what we should do.

[farooqachmad]

The Quraan was not meant to be a scientific book. It is the obligation of Muslims to gain ilm - knowledge and to also help others. iF those in conjunction mean that Muslim should 'create', investigate or discover in the scientific or medical fields ... than that is what we should do.

That's probably one of the best brief statements about Qu'ran and science.

[Unaiza]

:mad:

Dont cuss my team. Makes me Kranky :grumpy:

[farooqachmad]

Religious scholars know more about Quran than scientists but they claim to know more about science as well. For example, it's not more than 50 years when religious scholars used to tell from their knowledge of Quran that only Allah knows about the gender of the baby when he is till in the womb of his mother. There's no way a human could know this secret. Now the medical science has enabled the humans to know the gender before birth, but the religious scholars still claim that the knowledge of scientists about science is far less than theirs. They try to prove this sort of claim on various websites where they make vague links to modern scientific discoveries with some verses of Quran to show that they already knew about the discoveries before scientists made those.

[PhoeniX]

You can hardly debate the miraculousness of the Qur'anic verses that were known well before the scientific advances.

Here are some of those sites you are knocking:

http://www.islamicity.com/science/

http://www.cis-ca.org/

http://muslimsonline.com/science/

http://www.ummah.net/directory/menu/science.html

http://rationalreality.50webs.com/bio.htm

Still, quite amazing.

[urbanmax]

I think Mr Farooq makes some valid points and is a bit misunderstood.

Also he should have stated he is talking about certain areas. (pakistan etc..)

And there is a clear and present risks that muslims will become like the US Creationists. Trying to get science to fit in to believes.

In Islam this probelm doesnt realy arise, but the problem is. The way many people follow Islam around the world isnt the same as it was in the time of the muslim empire.

Many village preachers and extremely suspect people have far too much influence.

I was shocked as someone who has bangladeshi roots to here about the recent bombings. And i think that is a clear sign of what happens when people are not educated, and accept things without question.

[PhoeniX]

And there is a clear and present risks that muslims will become like the US Creationists. Trying to get science to fit in to believes.

In Islam this probelm doesnt realy arise, but the problem is. The way many people follow Islam around the world isnt the same as it was in the time of the muslim empire.


Yes you're right. The problem doesn't really arise (though I do know of some people who merge evolution and the creation of Allah SWT, together :P).

All of Allah's methods have clearly been pronounced to be within the laws that govern man.

[farooqachmad]

Yes you're right. The problem doesn't really arise (though I do know of some people who merge evolution and the creation of Allah SWT, together).

Allah's creations are undergoing evolution ever since these were created. Different forms of energy are acting on different materials and biological life and keep them changing constantly. Everything is changing with time. Allah does the evolution under certain laws. Science is the branch of knowledge that deals with the study of these laws of nature. It helps us find out what different forms of energy are acting on materials and biological life to change it. The study of the laws of evolution is helpful in medicine and for the development of various kinds technology. Some desirable results may be obtained by applying different forms of energy on different materials or biological life if we know the laws of change or evolution.


All of Allah's methods have clearly been pronounced to be within the laws that govern man.

Religious scholars are against the theory of evolution on one hand but they still claim that all the laws of evolution (science) are described in Quran and they know these laws better than the scientists. I don't think that some sensible person would believe them.

[farooqachmad]

You can hardly debate the miraculousness of the Qur'anic verses that were known well before the scientific advances.

Here are some of those sites you are knocking:

http://www.islamicity.com/science/

http://www.cis-ca.org/

http://muslimsonline.com/science/

http://www.ummah.net/directory/menu/science.html

http://rationalreality.50webs.com/bio.htm

Still, quite amazing.

Science is knowledge. There's no conflict of science with Quran. Nobody stops you if you wish to learn science from Quran. But I havn't heard anyone learning any science from it. Therefore, one shouldn't discourage others to learn science from other sources.

[Illuminate]

Religious scholars are against the theory of evolution on one hand but they still claim that all the laws of evolution (science) are described in Quran and they know these laws better than the scientists. I don't think that some sensible person would believe them.
No scholars are against the evolution teaching of darwin, we did not come from monkeys.

[farooqachmad]

No scholars are against the evolution teaching of darwin, we did not come from monkeys.

Science too proves that we didn't come from monkeys but from a different ape which was similar to monkeys. The name for this ape is man. Woman changed the man (when he was in diapers). Religious scholars are against this theory. (coz they didn't wear diapers when they were babies. so it was very hard to change them)

[Illuminate]

Science too proves that we didn't come from monkeys but from a different ape which was similar to monkeys. The name for this ape is man. Woman changed the man (when he was in diapers). Religious scholars are against this theory. (coz they didn't wear diapers when they were babies. so it was very hard to change them)
What are you on about now...
diapers, apes and monkeys

[farooqachmad]

What are you on about now...
diapers, apes and monkeys

You said we didn't come from monkeys. I said yes. Humans started using diapers very lately. Monkeys still don't use them. Mothers of monkeys don't know how to change their children. Some human mothers also don't. Therefore they send their children to madrasahs. Maybe you don't know what's that. Never mind.

[rwoodville]

You said we didn't come from monkeys. I said yes. Humans started using diapers very lately. Monkeys still don't use them. Mothers of monkeys don't know how to change their children. Some human mothers also don't. Therefore they send their children to madrasahs. Maybe you don't know what's that. Never mind.

Farooq, you appear to have major problems with the situation in Pakistan, you would be better airing the problems on a Pakistani forum. You refer to evolution in an obscure manner, when referring to evolution can you please explain if you are referring to the Darwinian theorem or if on the other hand you are referring to adaptation, which is a different matter entirely.

You may have evolved from an ape, however I didn't so please keep these kinds of comments to yourself.

[farooqachmad]

Farooq, you appear to have major problems with the situation in Pakistan, you would be better airing the problems on a Pakistani forum. You refer to evolution in an obscure manner, when referring to evolution can you please explain if you are referring to the Darwinian theorem or if on the other hand you are referring to adaptation, which is a different matter entirely.

You may have evolved from an ape, however I didn't so please keep these kinds of comments to yourself.

There're differnt theories about evolution scientists are working on. Many people have not fully developed from the ape. They don't want to.

[rwoodville]

You are so funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Falls off chair laughing)

Now that I have got over the fit of giggles brought on by your extremely humorous response(?) and razor sharp wit (!?!) would you mind answering the question I asked?

[farooqachmad]

You are so funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Falls off chair laughing)

Now that I have got over the fit of giggles brought on by your extremely humorous response(?) and razor sharp wit (!?!) would you mind answering the question I asked?

Good question.