Saudi man kills daughter "for converting to Christianity" [Archive] - Page 3

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 12:02 AM

perpetraul liar....
so you weren't born outside the UK.....
if I am wrong say I am wrong - why constantly accuse me of lying...
I am 100% sure you told me...

this is the types of games you play - even you telling me where you were born you make a deal out it and trying to use it as a way of trying to attack me....

Oh no Looney...my world aint that small that it needs to revolve around my expereinces....its called empathy ..... for example this woman....I can imagine her having dreams and hopes and her trying to understand the world she lives in and trying to make her God given choices she had a favorite colour, enjoyed a certain meal had freinds, had hopes to have a partner she was alive.........I can imagine the fear and betrayal and horror she felt when her tongue was cut out ...I can only imagine the pain, anguish, misery she felt while being burnt........

Its called empathy ....... or do you think that Ive come back from the dead and thats why i defend her right to a religion....

So basic in your little world.......
oh dear... - Rehaam..... if you read my post, I said I agree, she shouldn't have been killed- playing the emotion card... this is what cults do.... Am afraid being emotive is not going to work with me.... - studying philosophy has thought me, never let emotion interfere with you thinking and judgement - whether religious issue or world ones.... don't waste your time by emotive with me...

And no you are not being empathic - being empathic means you see it in a wider context - islam looks at the wider picture.... you look at the small picture..

This woman's death (if true) is unfortunate - the ppl who commited the act are guilty and should be put on trial for murder...

What concern you are the small issues - the big issue is islam itself... Number one priority or objective of the law giver according to the quran is the preservation of religion - islam needs to be preserved from deviant ppl and from enemies of islam - you with the way you try and belittle islam and its way - you are destroying the very essense - in terms of spirit and letter of islam...

Law of Apostacy is simple - it is treason - high treason is what is punishable... Quran has made it clear that Allah Tala dislikes those who turn away from islam - to the point he curse's them.... this curse is done on behalf of mankind... One can make an arguement that the curse itself is a punishment to punish apostates.... I don't agree with it.. I have stated where I stand... and it is similar to most muslim on this thread...

Problem with you Rehaam - you can't put an islamic arguement forward - you turn to this god alone arguement - which has no substance.... and top of this you paly these games and don't answer ppl question - which makes discussing fruitle...

my little world - indeed the world is little - look at the world in comparison to the universe - we are irrelevant - I look at beyond this world - into the akhira/hereafter as well.... hence were we differ.... Infact this is the fundamental difference between beleiver and atheist.... do you believe in the hereafter Rehaam - some hadith rejectors don't they say it is a state of mind - not real or physical.... I wonder Rehaam were you stand - don't worry not expecting an reply clarifying it from you.....

Re-born Jihadi

26-08-2008, 12:03 AM

I doubt that they know your REAL views. I doubt if they did that your "existence" would be quite so "harmonious".

Oh they know my REAL views. And thankfully many are of the same opinion.

They practice what they think is right for them and I do whats right for me. Respect for whatever each one of us has a belief in.

Furthermore, politically we hold quite similar views.

So trust me, its quite harmonious and a lovely existence. You should try it.

faith28

26-08-2008, 01:19 AM

oh dear... - Rehaam..... if you read my post, I said I agree, she shouldn't have been killed- playing the emotion card... this is what cults do....

I have to interject here...'playing the emotion card'...may be the playing bit is what cults do but the feeling is human..that's what humans do..feel empathy towards each other..and it SHOULD work every time. Allah (SWT) uses it in the Quran to show people the injustice of others see the part about day of judgement asking girls why they were buried alive and did not commit a crime..if you don't feel emotional about that when you read how Allah (SWT) asks this question..then that is seriously worrying...it's really sad that these young girls were buried alive!! It should shake a person at the injustice of it all. And it SHOULD work on people..otherwise institutionalising it and belittling the emotional aspect as something of a barrier is an error in my opinion. It is what makes us human...otherwise we become politicians !

Empathy is what women are better at in general. So maybe that is way you and Rehaam don't see eye to eye here. Although I have a feeling it seems to be more and more personal on many threads!:confused:

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 09:56 AM

I have to interject here...'playing the emotion card'...may be the playing bit is what cults do but the feeling is human..that's what humans do..feel empathy towards each other..and it SHOULD work every time. Allah (SWT) uses it in the Quran to show people the injustice of others see the part about day of judgement asking girls why they were buried alive and did not commit a crime..if you don't feel emotional about that when you read how Allah (SWT) asks this question..then that is seriously worrying...it's really sad that these young girls were buried alive!! It should shake a person at the injustice of it all. And it SHOULD work on people..otherwise institutionalising it and belittling the emotional aspect as something of a barrier is an error in my opinion. It is what makes us human...otherwise we become politicians !

Empathy is what women are better at in general. So maybe that is way you and Rehaam don't see eye to eye here. Although I have a feeling it seems to be more and more personal on many threads!:confused:
empathy means you put yourself in the situation of the person and ppl....and try to think about how it must have been like... most ppl have empathy for the woman like the one in the opening posts..

Rehaam has empathy for this woman yes I am sure off that - but she is using this situation for her own means.. If she had empathy she would use the same empathy she claims to have for all woman, past and present and future... She fails to do this.. she is doing no different from what many cults do - using the emotive card to gain political points - like politicians do... Hence my issues with her...

Rehaam

26-08-2008, 12:24 PM

this is something we should consider....lot of ppl have experiences in life - especially the stuff that takes places in villages in asia - like FGM, honour killing and so on - so ppl end up rebeling..... so it is possbile that her background and experiences may have caused her to deviate from sunni islam...

Oh no Looney...my world aint that small that it needs to revolve around my expereinces....its called empathy ..... for example this woman....I can imagine her having dreams and hopes and her trying to understand the world she lives in and trying to make her God given choices she had a favorite colour, enjoyed a certain cuisine, had friends, laughed...had hopes to have a family....she was alive.........I can imagine the fear and betrayal and horror she felt when her tongue was cut out ...I can only imagine the pain, anguish, misery she felt while being burnt........

Its called empathy ....... or do you think that Ive come back from the dead and thats why i defend her right to a religion....[/B

[B]So basic in your little world.......

oh dear... - Rehaam..... if you read my post, I said I agree, she shouldn't have been killed- playing the emotion card...

Hmmmm....got yourself confused ? - you said I base things on my experiences ....and I proved that I do not as Ive notbeen burnt for apostasing....but you take the conversation somewhere else.....emotional card??

Why dont you read your own posts before replying to mine....then you might make some sense :)

to have a conversation you need to follow it...(it doesnt seem youve figured that out yet) ;)

Reading classes might help.....

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 03:07 PM

Hmmmm....got yourself confused ? - you said I base things on my experiences ....and I proved that I do not as Ive notbeen burnt for apostasing....but you take the conversation somewhere else.....emotional card??

Why dont you read your own posts before replying to mine....then you might make some sense :)

to have a conversation you need to follow it...(it doesnt seem youve figured that out yet) ;)

Reading classes might help.....
what are you on about... :confused:

I said your background could caused you to deviate form sunni islam - ppl backgrounds cause them to go down certain paths - e.g radicals...many lived a life full of vices - as they got older they rebel against the system which they accused of corrupting them - so they go to the other extreme - This is the nature of going to extremism - you flip from one side to another...

So for you - I meant - you may have in your village in pakistan you lived and was born in experience in your culture their - honour killing, FGM, worshipping of graves - so coming to the UK - you flip to the other extreme - and to go against your culture - you took the western culture....- where some parents have little respect for their daughters - encourage them to be pop idols, page three girls, modeling (these start at a young age) - as it is glamourous..... this leads to wanting to look good - then you you plastic surgery, eating disorders etc... Also you have worship of celebrities - the obsession with them - this is shirk - it is going from one extreme to another.... This is what I meant..

You have basically liberal secular values and outlook - hence you follow the spirit of atheism - the individual attitude, materialism...etc... you divorce yourself from religion - islam which oppose liberal secularism - e.g. you reject that hijab for you is an obligation - there is one thing not wearing it and another rejecting it altogether - that you have to practise five pillars (not your three), you have take islamic values not your secular values... I can go on... you get the picture..

It is islam which gives woman a way out of this world - that is why so many western woman convert to islam - e.g. JL on this site... what you proposing is taking away the very thing - islam in its puriest form, gives western woman an avenue to leave the state they are in..

Think about what I said - and look and ponder over it.... doesn't Allah Tala say think and ponder - look at the signs... You will see for yourself.. That is why I can't never accept yours and SQ's outlook, attitude and way you interprete the quranic text and see islam... never ever....

Neme

26-08-2008, 03:12 PM

It is islam which gives woman a way out of this world....
Would that be via stoning?

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 03:14 PM

Would that be via stoning?
we trying to have a serious discussion - if you want to banter do it else where..

Neme

26-08-2008, 03:16 PM

we trying to have a serious discussion - if you want to banter do it else where..

Oh I'm sorry. I read the thread and thought you were just being horrid to each other as usual.

My mistake

NotAPrayer

26-08-2008, 03:19 PM

You have basically liberal secular values and outlook - hence you follow the spirit of atheism - the individual attitude, materialism...etc....

:eek:

Nothing about liberal secularism means that you follow 'the spirit of atheism' - do you have any idea what secularism means?

Nor materialism

Nor 'individual attitude'.

Advocate conservative theodicy if you want but don't presume to think that it follows you know what is in the minds of everyone who disagrees with you!

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 03:21 PM

:eek:

Nothing about liberal secularism means that you follow 'the spirit of atheism' - do you have any idea what secularism means?

Nor materialism

Nor 'individual attitude'.

Advocate conservative theodicy if you want but don't presume to think that it follows you know what is in the minds of everyone who disagrees with you!
indeed - discussed secularism loads of time.... modern secular values...
there is thread on secularism - in islam and politics section...

NotAPrayer

26-08-2008, 03:22 PM

indeed - discussed secularism loads of time.... modern secular values...
there is thread on secularism - in islam and politics section...

point me to it - someone needs a lesson in english!

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 03:24 PM

point me to it - someone needs a lesson in english!
I suggest you buy a good english dictionary - for your lessons.. :D

go to Islam and politics section and type in secularism in the search box.. :thumbup:

Rehaam

26-08-2008, 03:34 PM

we trying to have a serious discussion - if you want to banter do it else where..

With yourself? :thumbup:

NotAPrayer

26-08-2008, 03:38 PM

I suggest you buy a good english dictionary - for your lessons.. :D

go to Islam and politics section and type in secularism in the search box.. :thumbup:

i can only see five threads in there???

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 03:41 PM

With yourself? :thumbup:
look Rehaam - I am trying to have a discussion with you - I don't understand why are you being so confrontational and why this silly atititude of yours...

I replied to you in my previously posts in straight, concise and forward manner - telling you exactly where I am coming from and how I see things - but yet you don't reply to me - instead resort to this... :no:

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 03:45 PM

i can only see five threads in there???
try these threads:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=28284
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=35913
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=33312
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=35904

Rehaam

26-08-2008, 06:56 PM

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

if there is no compulsion in religion - what was the point of islam and god wasting his time.....

....even where God has said theres no compulsion you challange it...

I replied to you in my previously posts in straight, concise and forward manner - telling you exactly where I am coming from and how I see things

I get a gist of where youre coming from ....

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 08:39 PM

....even where God has said theres no compulsion you challange it...
have you ever studied metaphysics..... In the west, mataphysics is seen as irrelevant - as looking at realities is not seen as important... hence when ppl come out of the education system they don't look at realities, as they no longer teach metaphysics....

The reason I am mentioning this is to understand the realities of these verse's you must have understood metaphysics - in particularly the area of when things are general/universal and those which are particular..

That verse 2:256 - can be interpreted on its own in numerous ways - you can say it is absolutely general - so one is free to change their religions willy nilly.... or you can take it particular, so you can't force ppl to convert to islam - the latter is the interpretation off sunni muslims generally... if you take the first interpretation - it makes a mockery of the religion - and will contradict other verse's - for example the purpose of islam itself...

the only way to understand the quran, is looking at the way the prophet (saw) - explained it as he was an absolute messenger as well.... Otherwise, as can be seen those who don't refer to the teachings of the messenger - they engage in endless speculation, conjecture and guesswork about the quran and the aims and objectives of lawgiver.... None of these ppl, have a clue of reality - how can they ever intreprete and understand the quran is beyond me....

I get a gist of where youre coming from ....
:thumbup: good one :)

there is still hope to safe you from the clutches of those god alone fruitcakes... :D

Rehaam

26-08-2008, 08:52 PM

to understand the realities of these verse's you must have understood metaphysics...

"Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware." (11:1)

"Ha Mim. By the evidence of the Book that makes things clear . Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you use your reason." (43:1-3)

"Ha Mim! By the evidence of the Book that makes things clear. " (44:1-2)

"We have made the revelations clear to you, if you will use your reason. " (3:118)

"And indeed We have made the Qur’an easy for taking reminder, then is there anyone who will receive admonition?" (54:17)

None of these ppl, don't have a clue of reality - how can they ever intreprete and understand the quran...

:rolleyes:

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 09:28 PM

"Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware." (11:1)

"Ha Mim. By the evidence of the Book that makes things clear . Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you use your reason." (43:1-3)

"Ha Mim! By the evidence of the Book that makes things clear. " (44:1-2)

"We have made the revelations clear to you, if you will use your reason. " (3:118)

"And indeed We have made the Qur’an easy for taking reminder, then is there anyone who will receive admonition?" (54:17)
:rolleyes:
the verses you quote to me shows how you have not understood what the Quran is....yet again you taking isolated verse's and using for your desires... Did you get these english translation of verse's from submission/god alone websites...

This is where your education from a secular prespective who seperate thinking from reality comes into play....(how long you been in this country - I guess 15-20 years...you never told me your age) also your evangelised docterine have influence your mindset.. what you are doing is placing absolute certainty on reason alone - with out actually looking at realities.... Quran is also a book for reality.... If you read the quran Allah Tala tells us to ponder on the world we live and look at the signs.. as we must think with looking at realities.. not seperate them.... Also Allah tala tells us the prophet (saw) came to also 'explain' the revelation - again you disregard these verse's....or maybe you don't believe that the mohammed (saw) was the absolute messenger...like the other god only ppl... So you quoted verse's above are irrelevant unless you contextualise with the rest of the quran...

You god alone disregard for realities comes directly from modern day western philosophy - the atheistic outlook and atitiude.... it modern day roots lie in logical positivism - which began in austria - I am not going into its history...... You have simplified revelation to the point, it has become an individual thing - not a collective matter... This is is what secularism is about turning religion away into the private sphere not the public sphere.... hence your individualistic and inward looking attitude... and your love for libreal secularism...

What you god alone ppl are doing, is destorying yourself spiritually - to the point where you will become totally spiritually backrupt - destroying yourself both in this world and next...remember shaitan flows through the blood of children of adam - this is literal - I assure you 100% it is literal... he will not leave you alone until he has destroyed you... Allah Tala tells us shaitan and his army are our open enemy..

The next stage for you god alone ppl - is moving away from the evil philosophy sola scriptura - god book only - to sola fide - faith alone - so basically where the quran itself will no longer be needed... You already belittle the status and role of the quran - so you god alone ppl are already there..

In terms of islam - you god only ppl - are outside the fold of islam - I know you don't care - but that is the reality of the situation...

Anyway, at least you confirmed once and for all that you are a god only person - and follower of the evil philosophy of sola scriptura.... May Allah tala give you hidayah...

Rehaam

26-08-2008, 09:42 PM

... Allah Tala tells us shaitan and his army are our open enemy..

and like I said ....I know where youre coming from....

;)

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 09:48 PM

and like I said ....I know where youre coming from....

;)
Rehaam if you want to discuss do so like a adult and not play these childish games constantly... if you have anything constructive to say and add to our discussion - do so - otherwise what is the point of having a discussion..

Do you not care about your faith or what the quran is actually telling you - Do you not care about the world we live and how islam relates to it...

Doesn't Allah Tala tell us this life in this world is short and just a play thing - why do you want to destroy yourself like this... don't understand....

JerseyLily

26-08-2008, 09:54 PM

Illuminate

26-08-2008, 09:57 PM

and like I said ....I know where youre coming from....

the only reason I am spending my time, making an effort for you - is I don't want you to go further away from islam - otherwise one day you will wake up and have your hands in your head and think what happen and what have you done - then it will be too late..

drepf

26-08-2008, 10:16 PM

Muslimlarki

26-08-2008, 10:43 PM

Hands in your head? How does that work then? :)

LOL, no idea i am sure lumy will try and enlighten us! :lol:

Abdul Hafiz

26-08-2008, 10:46 PM

Muslimlarki

26-08-2008, 11:00 PM

Neme

26-08-2008, 11:02 PM

Hands in your head? How does that work then? :)
Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said dreamer, youre nothing but a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said far out, - what a day, a year, a laugh it is!
You know, - well you know you had it comin to you,
Now theres not a lot I can do

Now sing along with me!

Re-born Jihadi

26-08-2008, 11:04 PM

the only reason I am spending my time, making an effort for you - is I don't want you to go further away from islam - otherwise one day you will wake up and have your hands in your head and think what happen and what have you done - then it will be too late..

Bro Illumi

I personally believe its better if you and Rehaam discuss via PM. Might be a better opportunity to discuss without other people butting in.

Rehaam

26-08-2008, 11:07 PM

the only reason I am spending my time, making an effort for you - is I don't want you to go further away from islam - otherwise one day you will wake up and have your hands in your head and think what happen and what have you done - then it will be too late..

(Qur’an 73:20)
"And seek forgiveness of Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate."

"Verily, those who believe (in the Quran) And those who follow the Jewish( scriptures) And the Christians and the Sabians, Any who believe in God
And the Last Day, And work righteousness Shall have their reward
With their Lord; on them Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Holy Quran 2:62

:)

Bro Illumi

I personally believe its better if you and Rehaam discuss via PM. Might be a better opportunity to discuss without other people butting in.

...such are the intentional pleasures of a forum....

Muslimlarki

26-08-2008, 11:46 PM

Rehaam,

I didn't mean it in that way.....I was asking JL does she really think you believe in all that as I didn't think you seemed to do so.

Sorry for offending you, hope you can forgive me.

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 12:12 AM

Rehaam,

I didn't mean it in that way.....I was asking JL does she really think you believe in all that as I didn't think you seemed to do so.

Sorry for offending you, hope you can forgive me.

Oh no darling dont say that...... you just worry when people start associating you to cults and so on....lol!!

JL has nothing to base her beliefs on....but expects clarifications....Ive asked her to quote me but she doesnt....so whatever...not bothered .....unlike about your opinion.... :)

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 11:47 AM

(Qur’an 73:20)
"And seek forgiveness of Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate."

"Verily, those who believe (in the Quran) And those who follow the Jewish( scriptures) And the Christians and the Sabians, Any who believe in God
And the Last Day, And work righteousness Shall have their reward
With their Lord; on them Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Holy Quran 2:62
islam lies between fear and hope - between wrath and mercy...

Just as many times Allah Tala says in the Quran he forgives - he also tells us about his wrath, punishment... Why don't you quote those verse's... Allah Tala says he is severe in punishment.... why do you keep on quoting selective verse's - and those which you like...

There is two ways to go astray in islam - one is to focus soley on gods wrath and other focusing solely on gods mercy - the jews focused on gods wrath and went astray and the christians on gods mercy - they went astray... Your evangelised christian docteine are coming into play again..

Remember disobidience to Allah Tala and the message that the prophet (saw) bought itself can and will bring the punishment of Allah Tala. As Quran says:

And whatever calamity befalls you, it is according to that which your own hands have earned - and Allah forgives much. (42:30)

Whatever good comes to you is from Allah, and whatever evil comes to you is from your self.... (3:155)

In the short term you get away with it - as Allah tala forgives - but further down the line - Allah tala will punishes ppl.... Do you even spend you r time repenting - doing istikara or praying salatul tauba..... silly question, it is not in the quran - how are you god alone ppl going to do that....

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 11:59 AM

I would like to ask Rehaam what is the name of the sect that she follows because as I keep saying I have never come across anyone who only follows a limited number of hadith.

Also how did you discover this sect? Are your family also following this way?

Does it have a name?

Please reply Rehaam

Is that what Rehaam believes in? :confused:

Oh no darling dont say that...... you just worry when people start associating you to cults and so on....lol!!

JL has nothing to base her beliefs on....but expects clarifications....Ive asked her to quote me but she doesnt....so whatever...not bothered .....unlike about your opinion....
OK girls - when Rehaam first came to the forum she was quiet a pleasant girl - a good sister :) she wasn't confrontational, nor did she resort to mocking and personal insults - and she didn't have this childish attitude, she has shown on this thread... Also she used to give those anti-islam - stooges hell... She had a bit of that anti-hadith idea's - but nothing major I saw...

It was when SQ, appeared - that is when her mind got poisoned - I thought she would see through him and realise what he stood for. - like everybody else did.... But no she took to him like a discipline obeys an apostle - lol..... She started to post more and more anti-islamic views and opinions - to the point now where she no longer gives the anti-islam stooges hell but instead holds hands with them...

Also she used to quote lot of stuff from submission website - the messenger Rashad Khilafa... website and his 19 theory.... but she realised ppl on this forum won't be taken in by her favourite (submitters) website...

She does not have any reverence for sunnah and considers it to have no authority...as she stated on this very thread - gods knows how she practise her five pillars... and what she considers halal and haraam..

She also gave the :thumbup: to SQ on the other thread - for his twice a day salat (which are devoid of prostration, bowing, salawat and which can be said whilst walking, talking, running, driving).... and that khimar - alcohol is not haraam according to the quran... So it shows where she is coming from...

So Rehaam be honest with yourself - at least...all this cover up, hiding your beliefs - what good is it...

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 12:20 PM

I would like to ask Rehaam what is the name of the sect that she follows because as I keep saying I have never come across anyone who only follows a limited number of hadith.

Also how did you discover this sect? Are your family also following this way?

Does it have a name?

Please reply Rehaam
lot of stuff she comes out with is directly from the submission sect: This posts, see what her sources are - submission.org and sites assoicated with them:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showpost.php?p=147487&postcount=56

Submission sect are ppl outside the fold of islam - there founder was rashad khilafa who declared he was a messenger of god.... he came from the bible belt - he was an evangelsied muslim basically - some even say he was a coptic christian - he is the founder of the modern day god alone sect... here is a thread on him:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=19950&highlight=rashad

Like I said Rehaam, was quiet a plesant person, her mind got poisoned by SQ.... - he - SQ posts most of his rubbish - from the free-minds website - www.free-minds.org (http://www.free-minds.org) who are hard core hadith rejectors - a off-shoot from submission website - they just created a new religion - and where each person decides what to practise and follow..

Bit about them - they have an atheist outlook and attitude... they basically adhere to the rationalist movement - here is wiki on the rationalist movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalist_movement

The ratioanlist movement - are free-thinkers atheist - the free minds website are ppl who use the same outlook and atittuide and apply it to the quran - basically turning islam into an evangelised religion based on atheistic outlook...

This is the where Rehaam comes from - that is why, if you read her posts - on this thread - this is the atitutde, outlook and docterine she has - and I have told more than once.... May Allah Tala give her hidayah...

Hands in your head? How does that work then?

LOL, no idea i am sure lumy will try and enlighten us!
it is a saying/proverb - I don't know where it originates from - its is not literal - but metaphorical - meaning you will regret what you are doing and done...

Bro Illumi

I personally believe its better if you and Rehaam discuss via PM. Might be a better opportunity to discuss without other people butting in.

she is not on my buddy list - only those who are on my buddy list can send me PM's - helps keep away all the comedians, jokers, riff raf, the trash and so on..... :LOL:

.

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 02:17 PM

can I just ask, out of interest really, do you speak Classical Arabic?
she doesn't even speak arabic - probably can't read arabic...

and knowing classical arabic is not enough - even the prophets (saw) companions mis-interpreted the quranic text, until the messenger of Allah Tala clarified the meaning.... what chance these god alone muppets getting it right.. they think a classical arabic dictionary is enough..

Quran is a linguisitic phenomena - you need more than a classic arabic dictionary...otherwise you have ppl like Rehaam givng the thumbs-up to SQ, for his interpretation of the quran that alcoholic not haraam according to the quranic text and his two time salat (devoid of prostration, bowing and so on....)

The quranic meaning comes from either of the three things - either (1) linguistic meaning (2) the sacred meaning or (3)custom meaning - these three further break down to being either equivocal or unequivocal.... and this goes even further...

Rehaam doesn't have the sophistication nor has any sort of knowledge to interprete and understanding with any great meaning... so only guesses at and takes the apparent meaning - nothing further... just like the rest of the god only lot..... infact most of them rely sole on the english quran - translated by rashad khilafa and his ilk.... - so they don't even study or look at the arabic text...

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 04:00 PM

You and your lies Lumy...you and your lies...good muslim that you are....

:thumbup:

rf-uk

27-08-2008, 04:42 PM

OK girls - when Rehaam first came to the forum she was quiet a pleasant girl - a good sister :) she wasn't confrontational

Oh so you don't like confrontation from women? Good quiet girls who don't challenge your superior male opinion? Yep, you really fit the typical muslim stereotype. How very predictable.

nor did she resort to mocking and personal insults - and she didn't have this childish attitude, she has shown on this thread...

You are accusing her of personal insults?!??!?!! ERRRMMMMMMMM you have made maybe one or two insults also, no?

It was when SQ, appeared - that is when her mind got poisoned - I thought she would see through him and realise what he stood for. - like everybody else did.... But no she took to him like a discipline obeys an apostle - lol..... She started to post more and more anti-islamic views and opinions - to the point now where she no longer gives the anti-islam stooges hell but instead holds hands with them...

Wow, they really have their best man on the job! You should get promoted to chief constable!!

I think you are a judgemental bully and my opinion of Islam really hasn't got better since reading posts from you and lily AND YOUR ILK (been dying to fit that in!!!). You fit the fundo stereotype perfectly and simply affirm the negative hostility that exists between our cultures. Its people like you why Islam gets such a bad name.

Bravo, well done. :thumbsdn:

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 04:42 PM

What I find quite illuminating is that Rehaam answers the questions put to her selectively. Not that she has to answer, but still

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 04:47 PM

You and your lies Lumy...you and your lies...good muslim that you are....

:thumbup:
like I said to you earlier in this thread - I will be delighted to be proven wrong and have this accusation of lie to stick on me - as it would me that I totally mis-understood you and your posts... I have enuogh sincerity and shame to put my hand and say Rehaam doesn't hold these beliefs - it will make me very happy for you indeed...

I want to be embarrassed and shamed - but you have said anything to do that...

Look at your post on this thread - there is plenty on here to suggest you hold this god only ideology...

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 04:57 PM

Oh so you don't like confrontation from women? Good quiet girls who don't challenge your superior male opinion? Yep, you really fit the typical muslim stereotype. How very predictable.
on the contrary I prefer woman who think for themselves - which is different from ppl (not just woman) who solely here to be confrontational - you have plenty of non-muslims - the anti-islam brigade here who are to be confrontational - no other purpose but provoke and irrate...

You are accusing her of personal insults?!??!?!! ERRRMMMMMMMM you have made maybe one or two insults also, no?
banter is all part of this forum - not the personal insults...
I am careful to attack ppl believes not them....

Wow, they really have their best man on the job! You should get promoted to chief constable!

I think you are a judgemental bully and my opinion of Islam really hasn't got better since reading posts from you and lily AND YOUR ILK (been dying to fit that in!!!). You fit the fundo stereotype perfectly and simply affirm the negative hostility that exists between our cultures. Its people like you why Islam gets such a bad name.

Bravo, well done. :thumbsdn:
who cares what you think... On this forum, I have been called a modernist, moderate and fundamentalist, extremist - I am flattered indeed - to be seen as all three - it means I must be doing something right....

It is not my ilk - who has created this hostility between islam and others - but your ilk - who want to impose and dictate what you want islam to be based on your vision and not what islam is... ppl like you, who want muslim to remain quiet about the immorality and unethical behaviour of the govt and its policy....

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 05:02 PM

What I find quite illuminating is that Rehaam answers the questions put to her selectively. Not that she has to answer, but still
she has always been like that - isn't that part of the problem - if she can't clarify where she stands isn't this itself going to create the misunderstanding....

Everyone on this forum - I usually debate and discuss, are happy to clarify their beliefs - except Rehaam and one other.......

Chris

27-08-2008, 05:07 PM

I am careful to attack ppl believes not them....

Are you sure about this? It seems you make a lot of personal attacks. Usually by calling people stupid.

Rehaam doesn't have the sophistication nor has any sort of knowledge to interprete and understanding with any great meaning

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 05:09 PM

like I said to you earlier in this thread - I will be delighted to be proven wrong and have this accusation of lie to stick on me - as it would me that I totally mis-understood you and your posts... I have enuogh sincerity and shame to put my hand and say Rehaam doesn't hold these beliefs - it will make me very happy for you indeed...

I want to be embarrassed and shamed - but you have said anything to do that...

Look at your post on this thread - there is plenty on here to suggest you hold this god only ideology...

here we go again... you have continously alleged that I reject hadees and sunnah on namaz/hajj/fasting/zakat and one or two other things....can you show me where I have said that I reject all hadees ANYWHERE or on ANY THREAD....

why should I defend myself to you?

Prove your allegations 1st...but you wont because they are baseless....

your a bully...I come across people like you in my line of work everyday.....thats why I know where youre coming from.....and thats why you dont bother me....... :)

:thumbsdn:

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 05:11 PM

Are you sure about this? It seems you make a lot of personal attacks. Usually by calling people stupid.
you quote this:

[I]Rehaam doesn't have the sophistication nor has any sort of knowledge to interprete and understanding with any great meaning
no muslim on this forum has the sophisitication and the sort of knowledge to interprete the quranic text with any great level of meaning... As quran itself is sophisticated and complex book..My post in response to her saying that the quran is a simple easy to read book - which it is not... clutching at straws...

Re-born Jihadi

27-08-2008, 05:11 PM

You are accusing her of personal insults?!??!?!! ERRRMMMMMMMM you have made maybe one or two insults also, no?
:

Pot, Kettle, Black RF....Dont worry, your REP comment was reported. You should hear from a MOD soon.

Re-born Jihadi

27-08-2008, 05:13 PM

It is not my ilk - who has created this hostility between islam and others - but your ilk - who want to impose and dictate what you want islam to be based on your vision and not what islam is... ppl like you, who want muslim to remain quiet about the immorality and unethical behaviour of the govt and its policy....

Well Said Bro Illumi....:thumbup:

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 05:22 PM

here we go again... you have continously alleged that I reject hadees and sunnah on namaz/hajj/fasting/zakat and one or two other things....can you show me where I have said that I reject all hadees ANYWHERE or on ANY THREAD....

why should I defend myself to you?

Prove your allegations 1st...but you wont because they are baseless....

your a bully...I come across people like you in my line of work everyday.....thats why I know where youre coming from.....and thats why you dont bother me.......

OK Rehaam - I will quoted what you stated - now tell me how you can even practise the the five pillars with what you said...

I even replied to you - asking for clarification - but you didn't respond - typically..

this was my response to you:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showpost.php?p=536935&postcount=157

and I replied again:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showpost.php?p=537231&postcount=217

You clearly stated:
...there is a whole thread on why a sunnah does not have the same status as Quran.... - you talking about SQ's thread..

how can you even practise the five pillars without even recognising the status of the sunnah...

This is just in this thread - where I picked this up - what about the other threads...

Remember the Challenge hadith rejectors - how you gave the thumbs up to SQ for his alcohol and his two time salat theory (which are devoid of prostration/bowing)
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=16929&page=26

Also in the quran only thread:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=29404

look at your approval of the hadith rejectors when they belittle the status of hadith and sunnah... you constantly have done - What do you expect ppl to think...

Numerous times you have been asked question, by many on this forum - on this thread JL on others by other forum members...- but you delibrately side-step, avoid - the question asked - they are asking you these Q - because of your posts.. and what you saying.... even abdul hafiz has picked this up - see post # 544

This is the problemwith you Rehaam - you either says things without understanding their full implication or you trying to trick ppl...

Now if you clarify these posts of yours that would be a start....

no - I am not bullying you on the contrary///- why would I want to do that - I am stating what yourself seem to stand for.. until you actually clarify these posts - I and probably others will have these views of you...

as I stated on a previous posts:

the only reason I am spending my time, making an effort for you - is I don't want you to go further away from islam - otherwise one day you will wake up and have your hands in your head and think what happen and what have you done - then it will be too late..
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showpost.php?p=538194&postcount=528

no bullying at all... why would I want to bully you - there is nothing you have or can give me to bully your good self.. :)

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 06:20 PM

No quotes no surprise.....the hadees I take offence against I have clearly mentioned again and again NONE of my posts says anything against the sunnah relating to any of the 5 pillars of Islam? Like I said no qoutes no surprise....

Sunnah does not have the status of the Quran - I have always stood by that..... the Quran is directly the word of God is sunnah is not hence the contradictions in it....ie sunnah somewhere has the age of consummation for Aisha (PBUH) to be 19 and other sunnah say 9.....

Sunnah can explain the law cannot create it without any linkage from the Quran especially on matters of killing people....and I have always said that....

Do you think the sunnah is directly the word of God.....is there any promise that it will be protected and preserved like the Quran? Quote me that surah from the Quran if there is....

can I just ask, out of interest really, do you speak Classical Arabic?

Oh so youre asking me about my understanding of the Quran?

But the punishment for converting from Islam to any other religion is death. I trust you would appreciate the difference (even if you do not appreciate the wisdom of the punishment).

Where does is it say the above in the Quran???

Clarify your understanding and ability to justify the above comment before questionning my abilities to understand the Quran..... ;)

I think you are a judgemental bully and my opinion of Islam really hasn't got better since reading posts from you and lily AND YOUR ILK (been dying to fit that in!!!). You fit the fundo stereotype perfectly and simply affirm the negative hostility that exists between our cultures. Its people like you why Islam gets such a bad name.

Bravo, well done. :thumbsdn:

:thumbup:

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 06:35 PM

No qoutes no surprise.....the hadees I take offence against I have clearly mentioned which one of my posts says anything against the sunnah relating to any of the 5 pillars of Islam? Like I said no qoutes no surprise....

I have given links and quotes from your own posts...this is kind of games you and also SQ always play...

if you go back to your previous posts...You said:

can you show me where I have said that I reject all hadees ANYWHERE or on ANY THREAD....

did I even mention you reject all hadith - impossbile to reject all hadith - even non-muslim have no choice but to accept some hadith...

What I have said you reject the status of hadith (numerous times) - so how can you even practise the five pillars of islam.... and know what is halal and haraam..

It is like SQ - who says he doesn't reject all hadith only accepts truthful ones - that don't contradict the quran....but yet it didn't stop him posting a thread on how the five pillars are a myth... I didn't see you saying otherwise on the thread..

Unless you clarify to me you are no different from what SQ propagates....

You see, Rehaam - where this all leads - you mock, belittle the status of hadith and sunnah on one hand and then claim you accept it status not with the five pillars... it doesn't make sense...

Ok if you aceept the five pillars that is good and I was wrong - but you still have not clarified concisely if you accept the five traditional pillars of islam.... All I know you could be playing with words..

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 07:08 PM

did I even mention you reject all hadith - impossbile to reject all hadith - even non-muslim have no choice but to accept some hadith...

What I have said you reject the status of hadith (numerous times) - so how can you even practise the five pillars of islam.... and know what is halal and haraam..

You don't follow islam tenents - you reject everything what islam stands for...

I hope the god alone (hadith rejectors) ppl on this thread, read this post

you are not sunni muslim - you are a god alone person.... why the deception....

it is you who is talking rubbish....
she is the type of person which the anti-islam just love - lol - to use and manipulate.... I see these god alone ppl no different to salman rushdie, yasmin brown, wafa sultan and their ilk...
[/B]

I ignored ALL the above until

but you don't follow quran at all - you igniore and reject it...belittle its status - you only accept some verse's not all of the quran....

it is not only islamic (sharia) law which you reject - but also ..... fasting, salat, hajj and so on... - you belittle them..

…
Can you show me where I have said that I reject fasting, salat, hajj?

Quote me....if you have any shame and are a person of good character - or of any character :)

And you still havnt…..

One final point ...

can you show me, where in the quran is forbids killing apostates - can you show me Rehaam.. I am awating...

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything , and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)

"Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous." (4:105)

"Or have they associates who have prescribed for them any Shariah laws that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment." (42:21)

"Surely the ‘HUKM’ (Law and Rule) is for none but Allah." (12:40)
"He does not make any one His associate in His ‘HUKM’ (Laws and Ruling)." (18:26)

"And complete are the words of your Sustainer with truth and justice; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (6:115)

".. nothing have we omitted from the Book.." (6:38)

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

I think that brings us to the end of our....conversation - if thats what you can call it....

:)

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 07:22 PM

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 07:41 PM

Oh so youre asking me about my understanding of the Quran?

No, Twister of Words, I asked you a simple question: Do you speak Classical Arabic? Not asking about your understanding or anything like this. Simply asked you if you speak Classical Arabic. You once again avoid a direct answer to direct question. No need to be clever you know. Yes or no would do. Or is it that you are unable to answer simple questions simply???

Where does is it say the above in the Quran???

The sources of Sharia for mainstream Muslims are Quran and Authentic Sunnah. I have stated it before. You seem to read posts and quote posts selectively as it suits you, Twister of Words. I therefore ask you a couple of simple and direct questions and hope against hope that you are actually capable of answering them in "yes" or "no" formats:

1. Do you agree with the following statement: "Sources of Islamic Law are Quran and Authentic Sunnah"?
2. Do you agree with the following statement: "Authentic Sunnah is the revelation of Allah ("Wahi")"?
3. Do you agree that something that is legislated for in the Authentic Sunnah but not mentioned in the Quran is to be followed as a Command from God?

Your answers to the above questions will end this discussion, for me at least, in a clear manner.

Clarify your understanding and ability to justify the above comment before questionning my abilities to understand the Quran..... ;)

This is how you create strife on this thread. You have twisted my simple question into another one, and now you accuse me of questioning your abilities to understand the Quran. This is a lie - I did not ask if you understood Quran. I asked if you could speak Classical Arabic. No need to twist anything.

As far as justification for the above comment, I already clearly stated my sources for the above. You seem to have some sort of criteria for determining which hadiths are correct and which are not. I therefore ask you a slightly more complex question:

What is your criteria for determining if a hadith is authentic or not?

I somehow hope, despite clear evidence that you avoid simple answers to simple questions, that you can actually give answers to questions asked instead of launching into your favourite "Quote me from Quran in a manner that is acceptable to me" routine. Because the simple answer to this routine is "Please tell me where killing of apostates is specifically forbidden?" and since there is no such specific prohibition and it is a principle of sharia (in certain madhabs) that all which is not forbidden is allowed, I can have the whole thread going round in circles once again.

So, please, stop twisting things and just answer the questions.

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 07:42 PM

Well, let's be fair here. I, and other people, have asked you direct questions on your beliefs. You reply to me was something along the lines "lets not worry much about me". You did not reply to any of the direct questions posed. We therefore have to judge by the apparent meaning of your statements and given that your positions are in direct opposition to mainstream Sunni positions

Good ...now youre getting closer to the issue....thing is Abdul Hafiz...youre not in a position to judge or to make assumptions about anyone...and it was off topic....I have made it very clear in previous threads where I stand on hadees....as I will continue to do so in future threads....and I can do easily know....but I dont like being questionned....because Im not answerable....I quoted the Quran - you can agree with it or disagree with it - you cannot deflect by trying to 'judge' the poster of the verse...

So in all fairness going back to the topic of the thread you said:
Originally Posted by Abdul Hafiz View Post
But the punishment for converting from Islam to any other religion is death.

Any Quranic justification?? Seeing that the Quran says: ".. nothing have we omitted from the Book.." (6:38)

Know the argument of it doesnt say how to read namaz in the Quran is invalid because there is association between Quran and the Sunnah purely becasue namaz has been mentioned in the Quran...can you show anything in the Quran to say death for those who peacefully leave Islam????

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 07:48 PM

Good ...now youre getting closer to the issue....thing is Abdul Hafiz...youre not in a position to judge or to make assumptions about anyone...and it was off topic....I have made it very clear in previous threads where I stand on hadees....as I will continue to do so in future threads....and I can do easily know....but I dont like being questionned....because Im not answerable....I quoted the Quran - you can agree with it or disagree with it - you cannot deflect by trying to 'judge' the poster of the verse...

So in all fairness going back to the topic of the thread you said:
Originally Posted by Abdul Hafiz View Post
But the punishment for converting from Islam to any other religion is death.

Any Quranic justification?? Seeing that the Quran says: ".. nothing have we omitted from the Book.." (6:38)

Know the argument of it doesnt say how to read namaz in the Quran is invalid because there is association between Quran and the Sunnah purely becasue namaz has been mentioned in the Quran...can you show anything in the Quran to say death for those who peacefully leave Islam????

Here we go again. Round and Round. You are so unbelievable. Can you please show me where I am specifically forbidden to kill apostates? Not in general, not by implication, but clearly and specifically in relation to apostates. You can't, can you. So then I am not forbidden am I.

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 07:51 PM

CasualVisitor

27-08-2008, 08:11 PM

What I think these forums need is a thread clearly stating the evidence and the positions of Ahl-Sunnah-wal-Jammah on the issue of Hadith and Quran. Otherwise non-Muslims are likely to be very very confused.
Not just non-Muslims. There's confusion all over the place.
And I guarantee you: no thread will clear it up. As there is not such a thing as THE MUSLIM.

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 08:26 PM

Rehaam - you edited your post...finally you beginning to come out with where you stand rather than playing games... thats better Rehaam

you are just echoing what hadith rejectors God alone ppl say - no different... why do you associate yourself with sunni and muslim is beyond me - God alone don't say they follow islam, but they say we are submitters/god alone.... stuff like that...

as your posts shows you reject the status of hadith/sunnah itself.... many muslim on this forum - have issues with certain hadith - but they don't go about rejecting it status of sunnah like you and the other hadith rejectors do :thumbsdn:

why do you continue with this line of reaoning - because it is totally illogical.... either accept the status of sunnah like all muslim do or reject it like hadith rejectors do... you want the best of both worlds...it doesn't work like that...

Sunnah does not have the status of the Quran - I have always stood by that..... the Quran is directly the word of God is sunnah is not hence the contradictions in it....ie sunnah somewhere has the age of consummation for Aisha (PBUH) to be 19 and other sunnah say 9.....

Sunnah can explain the law cannot create it without any linkage from the Quran especially on matters of killing people....and I have always said that....
sunnah has the same status as the quran - both are revelations..
quran is recited revelation and sunnah is non-recited revelation..

"He does not speak from his hawaa (desire); it is nothing except Wahee revealed to him." [Surah an-Najm 3-4]

hence everything he said regarding the religion is revelations....whether recited or non-recited... recited revelation happens through an angel like Jibrael (as) and non-recited directly through the prophet (Saw) heart - this is known as Wahi-Khafee....

The explaination and meaning of the quran is preserved - as Allah Tala has preserved both the recited revelation and non-recited revelation...

your ilk - keep going on about contradiction between quran and sunnah - according to whom - you.... that is just your opinion...you have no status what so ever to claim which sunnah contradicts the quran or not...

ie sunnah somewhere has the age of consummation for Aisha (PBUH) to be 19 and other sunnah say 9.....

stop lying Rehaam - you accuse me of lying - but yet, you bring the same lie time after time - even when it was clarified to you.. everytime you want to diss sunnah you bring this hadith - exactly how anti-islam ppl do.... doesn't matter how much it is clarified you still repeat it... what kind of insincere person are you..

Nowhere do hadith text say that the marriage to aisha was consummated at 9 years old - this is a mis-translation... this was clarified by both me and Imaam4success - yet you continue to cling on to this lie and distortion...

yes.....yes...I know - the hadith which you take offense are the ones you refuse to contextualise and try to understanding them by having empathy and why woman narrated them - because you want to use them to reject the status of sunnah...

Where is your empathy when it comes to hadith and why majority of woman narrated such hadith - you don't have any empathy - you just use ppl and woman rights to diss the status of hadith....especailly against woman.... so you don't need to follow islam... hope it hurts because it is true...

when Allah tala says woman in menstrual cycle are impure and polluted - all woman used these hadith to show what these verse actually means - you reject and call it literal voyeurism and porn - You are just beyond contempt - you are really a selfish individual arn't you....

Sunnah can explain the law cannot create it without any linkage from the Quran especially on matters of killing people....and I have always said that....
so sunnah can't create laws - so how do you practise the five pillars...

is there mention of athan, salwat, the rate of zakat, the testimony of faith, or number of times to do tawaf for hajj and many other things in the quran.... your ignorance is just mind boggling..

Prophet (saw) also gave laws - on all matters - law of apostacy is directly linked to the quran - including its punishment... it is how one carries out the law that is relevant - and this is for all laws...

Do you think the sunnah is directly the word of God.....is there any promise that it will be protected and preserved like the Quran? Quote me that surah from the Quran if there is....
we not talking about the word of god - the word of god is what we recite, in our prays.... - we are talking about the meaning of the quran - yes believe it or not Rehaam the quran also has a meaning - which Allah tala tells us he sent to the messenger of Allah Tala to explain - (We have revealed the Qur’an to you that you may comment on it an explain it.) which you reject - instead focus on your own explaination of the quran... without even knowing arabic - never mind classical arabic.

Sunnah is itself revelation - as I stated - Allah Tala not going to send a book, without preservation its meaning as well..

Allah Tala tell us repeatly to obey the messenger and make him our judge - he wouldn't be saying this if Allah tala wasn't going to preserve the sunnah.... you do ask some really really stupid question... show me where in the quran Alalh Tala says he will not preserve the sunnah... - two can play this god alone game -There is an actually a verse which many interprete to mean preservation of the teachings of the prophet (saw) - that is hadith/sunnah.... but that is not important - it are all the verse's where Allah Tala tells us to obey the messenger (saw) - which is mohammed (saw) not some other person...hence Allah Tala would preserve his teaching as well.. and how Allah Tala has preserved it teachings.... same way as the quran - through the ummah..

Sunnah is preserved also through the ummah of the rasul (saw) - not through books - the ummah acts as withness and preservation of the sunnah - as it is carrie din their hearts like the quran.... hence what the majority hold is true and haq... yes I know you go against the majority, because of you atheistic and evangelised docterine.... if you want to do that - reject the verses of the quran which you don't like as well....

What the muslim hold as a majority in terms of rituals, worship, ethics, morality and laws - is true and haq.... Thats why Allah tala says you are the best ummah... fundamentals are all preserved throught the ummah - the way the religion is practise...including its laws... issues such as age of asiha (ra) are not important....

Your problem is beyond hadith and sunnah - how you even practise the very fundamental of islam is beyond me...

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 08:36 PM

I ignored ALL the above until

And you still havnt…..
off course you going to ignore it - it is your games you play again....

you systemmatic failure to engage in any sort of discussion and answer the basic of question highlights you own deviant beliefs..

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything , and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)

"Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous." (4:105)

"Or have they associates who have prescribed for them any Shariah laws that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment." (42:21)

"Surely the ‘HUKM’ (Law and Rule) is for none but Allah." (12:40)
"He does not make any one His associate in His ‘HUKM’ (Laws and Ruling)." (18:26)

"And complete are the words of your Sustainer with truth and justice; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (6:115)

".. nothing have we omitted from the Book.." (6:38)
oh dear - quoting selective verse of the quran again - taken from god alone websites.. why don't you actually quote all verse's related to the topic... e.g.

"We have revealed the Qur’an to you that you may comment on it an explain it."

explain it - the sunnah :thumbup:

"He does not speak from his hawaa (desire); it is nothing except Wahee revealed to him." [Surah an-Najm 3-4]

O you who believe, obey Allâh and His Messenger ... " (8:20)

"Say: obey Allâh and obey the Messenger ... " (24:54)

"Obey Allâh and the Messenger and perhaps you will be shown mercy." (3:132) "If you obey him, you will be guided ... " (24:54)

"Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allâh ... " (4:79)

"That what the Messenger brings you and leave what he forbids you ... " (59:7)

"
Whoever obeys Allâh and the Messenger is with those whom Allâh has blessed." (4:68)

"We did not send any Messenger but for him to be obeyed by the permission of Allâh." (4:63)

off course nothing is omitted form the book and the quran is complete - as Allah Tala tell us that we need to follow the messenge of Allah Tala, that we are the best of ummah... so we have a source of understanding the quran.. again your quotes are irrelevant unless you look at it from a holisitc point of view..

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 ]But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

again these are just selective verse's where are the rest of the verse's on the topic - which were quoted...

Rehaam why do you keep rejecting the verse's of the quran and ignoring them - so that you can cling on your own views and ideas of what you want the quran to mean...

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 08:38 PM

Here we go again. Round and Round. You are so unbelievable. Can you please show me where I am specifically forbidden to kill apostates? Not in general, not by implication, but clearly and specifically in relation to apostates. You can't, can you. So then I am not forbidden am I.

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything , and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)

"Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous." (4:105)

"Or have they associates who have prescribed for them any Shariah laws that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment." (42:21)

"Surely the ‘HUKM’ (Law and Rule) is for none but Allah." (12:40)
"He does not make any one His associate in His ‘HUKM’ (Laws and Ruling)." (18:26)

"And complete are the words of your Sustainer with truth and justice; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (6:115)

".. nothing have we omitted from the Book.." (6:38)

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

I think that brings us to the end of our....conversation - if thats what you can call it....

.....you were asking me about my understanding of Classical Arabic....Im having doubts about your understanding of basic English.....

..and I think that brings us to the close of our conversation....

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 08:41 PM

Know the argument of it doesnt say how to read namaz in the Quran is invalid because there is association between Quran and the Sunnah purely becasue namaz has been mentioned in the Quran...can you show anything in the Quran to say death for those who peacefully leave Islam????
so has apostacy has been mentioned in the quran....Allah tala curse's them and says those who do mischief slay them..

oh dear Rehaam - you talking from the hole in your underpants...

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 08:48 PM

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything , and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)

"Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous." (4:105)

"Or have they associates who have prescribed for them any Shariah laws that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment." (42:21)

"Surely the ‘HUKM’ (Law and Rule) is for none but Allah." (12:40)
"He does not make any one His associate in His ‘HUKM’ (Laws and Ruling)." (18:26)

"And complete are the words of your Sustainer with truth and justice; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." (6:115)

".. nothing have we omitted from the Book.." (6:38)

oh dear - quoting selective verse of the quran again - taken from god alone websites.. why don't you actually quote all verse's related to the topic... e.g.

"We have revealed the Qur’an to you that you may comment on it an explain it."

explain it - the sunnah :thumbup:

"He does not speak from his hawaa (desire); it is nothing except Wahee revealed to him." [Surah an-Najm 3-4]

O you who believe, obey Allâh and His Messenger ... " (8:20)

"Say: obey Allâh and obey the Messenger ... " (24:54)

"Obey Allâh and the Messenger and perhaps you will be shown mercy." (3:132) "If you obey him, you will be guided ... " (24:54)

"Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allâh ... " (4:79)

"That what the Messenger brings you and leave what he forbids you ... " (59:7)

"
Whoever obeys Allâh and the Messenger is with those whom Allâh has blessed." (4:68)

"We did not send any Messenger but for him to be obeyed by the permission of Allâh." (4:63)

off course nothing is omitted form the book and the quran is complete - as Allah Tala tell us that we need to follow the messenge of Allah Tala, that we are the best of ummah... so we have a source of understanding the quran.. again your quotes are irrelevant unless you look at it from a holisitc point of view..

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

again these are just selective verse's where are the rest of the verse's on the topic - which were quoted...

Rehaam why do you keep rejecting the verse's of the quran and ignoring them - so that you can cling on your own views and ideas of what you want the quran to mean...

:)

CasualVisitor

27-08-2008, 08:48 PM

and says those who do mischief slay them.
What exactly constitutes "mischief"?
What does the Arabic equivalent express?

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 08:50 PM

I think that brings us to the end of our....conversation - if thats what you can call it....

.....you were asking me about my understanding of Classical Arabic....Im having doubts about your understanding of basic English.....

..and I think that brings us to the close of our conversation....
noooo - finish what you started Rehaam - you have failed to prove anything....

-you have not shown that the quran forbids killing apostates
-You have not embarrassed and shame me
-you have not proven that I am liar
-you have not proven that you practise the five pillars the way we muslim do
-you have not shown that you hold hadith/sunnah with any status
-you have not proved much actually - except to show how you want to get rid of all muslim except your god only buddies from the island - will you resort to physical means as well - Rehaam if we, second/third generation muslims and white snlgo saxon converts refuse to leave..

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 08:54 PM

What exactly constitutes "mischief"?
What does the Arabic equivalent express?
This is what I don't understand about Rehaam - she claims to follow the quran, but she refuse's to read all verse's concerning apostacy - which I find very bizarre...

Anyway I answered it previously - and so did others.. basically it is the same as treason - except it is related to faith and only those who are guilty of high treason are put on trial - by an islamic state..

An apostate who leaves islam - and lives his life, does nowt, in terms of threatening the islamic state and its ppl (which includes muslim and non-muslims) then who cares... it is particular who threatens the islamic state and its ppl...

Sparky II

27-08-2008, 08:57 PM

What exactly constitutes "mischief"?
What does the Arabic equivalent express?

http://z.hubpages.com/u/209628_f248.jpg?

CasualVisitor

27-08-2008, 08:58 PM

An apostate who leaves islam - and lives his life, does nowt, in terms of threatening the islamic state and its ppl (which includes muslim and non-muslims) then who cares... it is particular who threatens the islamic state and its ppl...
OK, in what way did she "threaten the islamic state and its ppl"then?

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 09:00 PM

OK, in what way did she "threaten the islamic state and its ppl"then?
the relevance of your question is what...
did I say she threaten the islamic state....did I even say she deserved to be punished... On the contrary if you go through my posts - I said she should not have been punished, but the person who killed her put on trial...

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 09:06 PM

What I think these forums need is a thread clearly stating the evidence and the positions of Ahl-Sunnah-wal-Jammah on the issue of Hadith and Quran. Otherwise non-Muslims are likely to be very very confused.
yeah - lot of non-muslim here are confused what we talking about...

To the non-muslim - we are not talking about apostacy as subject but a side issue on the sources of law within sunni islam...

Also in Rehaam case - how we must look at all the verse's of the quran to come to a conclusion on a matter.... not just cling on to the ones we like and ignore the ones we dont... otherwise you not following the quran...

CasualVisitor

27-08-2008, 09:09 PM

the relevance of your question is what...
did I say she threaten the islamic state....did I even say she deserved to be punished... On the contrary if you go through my posts - I said she should not have been punished, but the person who killed her put on trial...
Thanks Lumi. It should be somewhat fathomable that people lose their thread when a thread spans over 29 pages with loads of bickering in between,eh?
;)

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 09:10 PM

Thanks Lumi. It should be somewhat fathomable that people lose their thread when a thread spans over 29 pages with loads of bickering in between,eh?
;)
well as soon as a thread goes past page 3 - you know it is time to ignore it - looool

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 09:29 PM

As expected, you ignored the post asking you simple questions, Rehaan.

You also lie without blinking. Here's the proof:

.....you were asking me about my understanding of Classical Arabic....

No, I was not. The question was: "do you speak Classical Arabic?".

QED

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 09:31 PM

well as soon as a thread goes past page 3 - you know it is time to ignore it - looool

maybe you should ignore rather then start
talking from the hole in your underpants...

;)

CasualVisitor

27-08-2008, 09:32 PM

As expected, you ignored the post asking you simple questions, Rehaan.

You also lie without blinking. Here's the proof:

No, I was not. The question was: "do you speak Classical Arabic?".

QED
Nitpicker!
To speak is not possible without to understand. I do understand French quite well for example, but I am struggling speaking it.
Yet, I could not speak it (with knowing what I'd speak) without understanding it.

Sir, you are looking for flies in the soup before the spider is caught...

Rehaam

27-08-2008, 09:45 PM

Nitpicker!
To speak is not possible without to understand. I do understand French quite well for example, but I am struggling speaking it.
Yet, I could not speak it (with knowing what I'd speak) without understanding it.

Sir, you are looking for flies in the soup before the spider is caught...

Thanks..all these challanges and insults are about fear and control....trying to make the Quran to be something hard to understand, elusive to understand in order to maintain superiority over information......and if challanged to lie, not answer questions and insult and go in circles.....Illuminate and Abdul Hafiz are perfect examples of why muslims prefer to be in non muslim countries rather then muslim countries because in muslim countries people like them are in a vocal/political majority....and they make the life of other people pure hell......

This is nothing to do with religion...its a mentality...just like you have some doctors that kill their patients for fun.....and lawyers who defend the guilty.....

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 09:51 PM

maybe you should rather then start

;)
well - I prefer thread when they go beyond page 3 - then I meet ppl like you.... ;)

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 10:04 PM

Thanks..all these challanges and insults are about fear and control....trying to make the Quran to be something hard to understand, elusive to maintain superiority over information......and if challanged to lie, not answer questions and insult and go in circles.....Illuminate and Abdul Hafiz are perfect examples of why muslims prefer to be in non muslim countries rather then muslim countries because in muslim countries people like them are in a vocal/political majority....and they make the life of other people pure hell......

This is nothing to do with religion...its a mentality...just like you have some doctors that kill their patients for fun.....
Again you tuirning to emotion to get support from non-muslim for your ideology... What many non-muslim on this forum don't realise and know these god only ppl like Rehaam - are no different from the evangelised christians in the USA.... who goes around shouting... god words...god words..

Your post highlights how far you have gone away from actually understanding islam - and how you have begun to belittle the status of the quran itself.. making it a simplified book, to be understood in a foreign english - which one use's to fulfil their desires..

It is nothing about control and fear - it is about actually follwoing what the quran says - how many non-muslim (sincere ones) reading all the verse's in the quran regarding apostacy would say the quran views them as innocent...

ppl like me and probably abdul hafiz - don't make other ppl life hell - on the contrary - we stay away from extremist like yourself for a start....who want to turn islam into the very thing it oppose's - which is the inequality, the social injustices, the oppression, the immorality within society..... ppl like you are the ones non-muslim should fear... only if they knew what you stood for..

people like you just use countries like the UK - for your material gain - not concern about the immaterial aspect and flaws which exist - I for one do and work for a better britain...that does not mean shouting for the implication off shariah/islamic law...

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 10:39 PM

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 10:41 PM

and lawyers who defend the guilty.....

Actually, some of us do it because we believe that every single person is entitled to due process under law.

Abdul Hafiz

27-08-2008, 10:47 PM

Thanks..all these challanges and insults are about fear and control....

Well, it is of course correct that asking you to answer a question in a definitive way is about control - it would tie this debate to a clear frame of reference and allow everyone taking part to have information about the ideological positions of other participants.

Not a bad thing, in my opinion.

Illuminate

27-08-2008, 10:47 PM

Thanks..all these challanges and insults are about fear and control....trying to make the Quran to be something hard to understand, elusive to understand in order to maintain superiority over information......and if challanged to lie, not answer questions and insult and go in circles.....Illuminate and Abdul Hafiz are perfect examples of why muslims prefer to be in non muslim countries rather then muslim countries because in muslim countries people like them are in a vocal/political majority....and they make the life of other people pure hell......

This is nothing to do with religion...its a mentality...just like you have some doctors that kill their patients for fun.....and lawyers who defend the guilty.....

Again you tuirning to emotion to get support from non-muslim for your ideology... What many non-muslim on this forum don't realise and know these god only ppl like Rehaam - are no different from the evangelised christians in the USA.... who goes around shouting... god words...god words..

Your post highlights how far you have gone away from actually understanding islam - and how you have begun to belittle the status of the quran itself.. making it a simplified book, to be understood in a foreign english - which one use's to fulfil their desires..

It is nothing about control and fear - it is about actually follwoing what the quran says - how many non-muslim (sincere ones) reading all the verse's in the quran regarding apostacy would say the quran views them as innocent...

ppl like me and probably abdul hafiz - don't make other ppl life hell - on the contrary - we stay away from extremist like yourself for a start....who want to turn islam into the very thing it oppose's - which is the inequality, the social injustices, the oppression, the immorality within society..... ppl like you are the ones non-muslim should fear... only if they knew what you stood for..

people like you just use countries like the UK - for your material gain - not concern about the immaterial aspect and flaws which exist - I for one do and work for a better britain...that does not mean shouting for the implication off shariah/islamic law...
and Rehaam it is very low to resort to such tactics - to get support for your view - not on apostacy - (as we both have generally the same view) - but on your evangelised religious docterinces...

What non-muslim on this thread - don't fully realise that is what we are challenging Rehaam on - that has been what we have been debating for the last 25 pages or so..

She is just using you non-muslim, based on emotion to get support...very low.... indeed - you don't even answer the religious question we posed to you - if these non-muslim knew where you coming from - they won't see you in the same light... you and your evangelised docterines.. next you will on going to the bible belt joining those fruit-cakes....