"Jesus Saves" - What does it mean?

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

St. Paul told the Corinthians quite clearly - "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures." 1 Cor. 15:3.

I posted some comments on another thread and was told these were NOT the Christian concept of Salavation, so given the huge disparity between what I thought was the truth and what I've been told is the truth...that a dedicated thread is in order to clarify the matter.

I always thought "Jesus Saves" means Christians believe Jesus died for your sins and if you accept him as you saviour, trinity and all, that you are SAVED!

But now I'm told this is not quite so! I’m really confused - If once you've accepted Christ, there is consequence to sin i.e. sin to leads to death (spiritual and physical). Does that mean Christians believe Jesus did not die for ALL thier sins only some of them?

How can anybody say they truly believe that Christ has died for their sins, and at the same time say they believe that they must pay a penalty for their sins? How can anybody say they believe that Christ has paid for, and removed the penalty for their committing sin, and at the same time say that the penalty for committing sin still remains?

Here's what I said:

regarding christianity and the devils handiwork

It is common consensus amongst good people that rape, murder, incest etc can be regarded "the devils handiwork"

It is also common consensus amongst those religions that consider themselves to monthesistic that idolatary can be regarded "the devils handiwork"

*In Islam we regard, rape, murder, incest etc as heinous sins

*In Islam worshipping Idols with your heart AND worshipping idols with you limbs (bowing down) are heinous sins and such people can not be called muslims

*In Christianity, rape, murder, incest etc as heinous sins until you accept Jesus as your LORD and SAVOIUR thereafter all your sins are forgiven so even though you are encourage to question "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" it is not a sin to blatantly ignor this and satiate your desires in any way you see fit WITHOUT SIN

*In Christianity, worshipping Idols with your heart AND worshipping idols with you limbs (bowing down) are heinous sins until you accept Jesus as your LORD and SAVOIUR thereafter all your sins are forgiven so even though you are encourage to to question "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" it is not a sin to blatantly ignor this and although you may not worship idols with your heart as long as you continue to BELIEVE in Jesus as your LORD and SAVOIUR, you can physically bow down to any idol you wish without sin...statues of a golden calf, pigs, cow, monkeys, falis worship etc...and such people will still continue to be called Christian WITHOUT SIN

Of course, I could have misunderstood our conversations of your branch of christian doctrine and you are most welcome to explain why this is
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=2400

This is the reply I received:

You misunderstand, the law is still in effect however , we consider sin to lead to death (spiritual and physical). We are constantly reminded in scripture to live a life worthy of our calling. To put off the old man (sinful man) and put on the new man. The only difference is that the law cannot condemn us. We view those sins as heinous but believe God is also forgiving when one comes to true repentance.

However, I did get the impression that the biblical law did not apply from this Forum
Male circumcision isn't considered necessary from a Christian point of view so why female.
For Muslims yes for Christians no. As I've explained several times under the new covenant we are not bound by Jewish law as Jesus fullfilled that law , fullfilled ie met every requirement.

You can't beat a good pork chop with the fat fried crispy, try it and lamb just won't seem the same again .
The scripture you used means that Jesus met every requirement of the law
Fulfill: ful.fil', v.i.-fulfilled, fulfilling. [a compound of full and fill; O.E. fullfyllan.]
(1) To accomplish or to carry into effect, as a Prophecy or a Promise;
(2) to meet or satisfy the requirements;
(3) to bring to a finish or completion;
(4) to bring the conditions of a law to realization;
(5)to bring to a consummation.
-ful.fil.er, n.--ful.fill.ment, ful.fil.ment, An act of fulfilling; condition of being accomplished.

By fulfilling the law Christ satisfied it's requirements in our place. In other words, the 'required' obedience is accomplished in Him. Therefore, in Christ do we keep all the law faithfully, and cannot be accused. In this way, we are no longer judged by any of the everlasting laws, for we are under the Grace of God. The law doesn't condemn us.

1st Corinthians 15:56

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
Romans 8:1-2

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death".

The law stands, but it cannot condemn us because we are made free from the law in Christ, in Whose righteousness we stand. New Testament Christianity doesn't do away with the Old Testament laws, it stands in the revelation that the Messiah came to fulfill those laws, or to make complete, or to accomplish what was required that those laws not condemn us. He brought the law to completion, having stood in for us a substitute that the strength of sin (the law) not condemn us.

[veritas]

As a Christian I am not required to follow Jewish law. In Christ the law is fulfilled or brought to completion.

Have a read of Romans 6 it speaks about the law etc

Chapter 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
resurrection 1st Cor 6:14

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
dead Rev 1:18, Rev 2:8

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
freeman John 8:36, 1st Cor 7:22

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
uncleanness Matt 23:27, Rom 1:24, 2nd Cor 6:17, 2nd Cor 12:21, Gal 5:19, Eph 4:19, Eph 5:3, Eph 5:5, Col 3:5, 1st Thess 4:7
iniquity

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
end

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
end

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[ah1999]

There are only three Divinely revealed religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Each claims to be the only one which leads to Salvation. Since there is only one God then He has chosen only one religion for mankind.
Needless to say in order to determine which is the True religion which God Almighty has chosen for mankind to follow we need to carefully examine the fundamentals of each religion in an unbiased manner.
If start concentrating on minor issues such as:
Did Pharoah drown or not
Female Genital Mutilation
Is Selling alcohol allowed
and other subjects the likes thereof then it means one is not really interested in searching for the Truth.

We need to concentrate on the foundations of each religion, its fundamentals, the linchpins which are at the heart of the religion.
If one wishes to follow a religion then close scrutiny of each Divine religion leads to only one conclusion.

Each religion claims to follow the “Word of God” (Divine scripture) perhaps a starting point would be to determine which scripture could not possibly be the actual “word of God.”


From thread:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?p=30169#post30169
According to Mr. Veritas’ Arabic Bible Phillipians 2:8-11 is thus:

8وَإِذْ ظَهَرَ بِهَيْئَةِ إِنْسَانٍ، أَمْعَنَ فِي الاِتِّضَاعِ، وَكَانَ طَائِعاً حَتَّى الْمَوْتِ، مَوْتِ الصَّلِيبِ.
9لِذَلِكَ أَيْضاً رَفَّعَهُ اللهُ عَالِياً، وَأَعْطَاهُ الاِسْمَ الَّذِي يَفُوقُ كُلَّ اسْمٍ،
10لِكَيْ تَنْحَنِيَ سُجُوداً لاِسْمِ يَسُوعَ كُلُّ رُكْبَةٍ، سَوَاءٌ فِي السَّمَاءِ أَمْ عَلَى الأَرْضِ أَمْ تَحْتَ الأَرْضِ،
11وَلِكَيْ يَعْتَرِفَ كُلُّ لِسَانٍ بِأَنَّ يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحَ هُوَ الرَّبُّ، لِمَجْدِ اللهِ الآبِ.


The translation you have provided of these verses is thus:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You believe these are the "word of God' But which one?
The English translation you have provided of these verses contains words which are not in the Arabic text. So which is the "word of God?"
All of them, any of them?

[veritas]

There are only three Divinely revealed religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Each claims to be the only one which leads to Salvation. Since there is only one God then He has chosen only one religion for mankind.
Needless to say in order to determine which is the True religion which God Almighty has chosen for mankind to follow we need to carefully examine the fundamentals of each religion in an unbiased manner.
If start concentrating on minor issues such as:
Did Pharoah drown or not
Female Genital Mutilation
Is Selling alcohol allowed
and other subjects the likes thereof then it means one is not really interested in searching for the Truth.

We need to concentrate on the foundations of each religion, its fundamentals, the linchpins which are at the heart of the religion.
If one wishes to follow a religion then close scrutiny of each Divine religion leads to only one conclusion.

Each religion claims to follow the “Word of God” (Divine scripture) perhaps a starting point would be to determine which scripture could not possibly be the actual “word of God.”


From thread:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?p=30169#post30169
According to Mr. Veritas’ Arabic Bible Phillipians 2:8-11 is thus:

8وَإِذْ ظَهَرَ بِهَيْئَةِ إِنْسَانٍ، أَمْعَنَ فِي الاِتِّضَاعِ، وَكَانَ طَائِعاً حَتَّى الْمَوْتِ، مَوْتِ الصَّلِيبِ.
9لِذَلِكَ أَيْضاً رَفَّعَهُ اللهُ عَالِياً، وَأَعْطَاهُ الاِسْمَ الَّذِي يَفُوقُ كُلَّ اسْمٍ،
10لِكَيْ تَنْحَنِيَ سُجُوداً لاِسْمِ يَسُوعَ كُلُّ رُكْبَةٍ، سَوَاءٌ فِي السَّمَاءِ أَمْ عَلَى الأَرْضِ أَمْ تَحْتَ الأَرْضِ،
11وَلِكَيْ يَعْتَرِفَ كُلُّ لِسَانٍ بِأَنَّ يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحَ هُوَ الرَّبُّ، لِمَجْدِ اللهِ الآبِ.


The translation you have provided of these verses is thus:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You believe these are the "word of God' But which one?
The English translation you have provided of these verses contains words which are not in the Arabic text. So which is the "word of God?"
All of them, any of them?

Maybe you should throw a little light on the subject seeing as I don't read Arabic :) It looked nice on my sig. Of course it maybe that some Arab has tried to pass this off as a Arabic Bible and I fell for it :) .

[ah1999]

Maybe you should throw a little light on the subject seeing as I don't read Arabic :) It looked nice on my sig. Of course it maybe that some Arab has tried to pass this off as a Arabic Bible and I fell for it :) .


Perhaps people having been falling for IT for centuries!!
Since we don't have the original, seems people can do what they like, so we'll never know!! :)

The point is only the original words of the Gospel given to Jesus (AS) in the actual language they were sent are the ACTUAL "Word of God."
The Bible we have now can in no way be claimed to be the actual "word of God." I mean which translated language are you going to chose, which version are you going to attruibute to God Almighty as His Word?
This is the starting point for seeking Salvation and to detemine which is the True religion of God Almighty.

[veritas]

Perhaps people having been falling for IT for centuries!!
Since we don't have the original, seems people can do what they like, so we'll never know!! :)

The point is only the original words of the Gospel given to Jesus (AS) in the actual language they were sent are the ACTUAL "Word of God."
The Bible we have now can in no way be claimed to be the actual "word of God." I mean which translated language are you going to chose, which version are you going to attruibute to God Almighty as His Word?
This is the starting point for seeking Salvation and to detemine which is the True religion of God Almighty.



But then the Gospel is about Jesus so what , he was given a book about himself, get real. It doesn't really matter the essence is there whatever language its in. I mean if the Qu'ran is the Word of God why did one of the Kalifs burn copies of it ? very disrepectful to Gods Word don't you think.

I believe Salvation is found in Christ alone. I don't follow a religion anyway, religion is rules and dictates made by man I place my faith in what I consider to be the Word of God.

[veritas]

Maybe you should throw a little light on the subject seeing as I don't read Arabic :) It looked nice on my sig. Of course it maybe that some Arab has tried to pass this off as a Arabic Bible and I fell for it :) .

Could you explain your understanding of Sura 10:94 please.

[veritas]

Perhaps people having been falling for IT for centuries!!
Since we don't have the original, seems people can do what they like, so we'll never know!! :)

The point is only the original words of the Gospel given to Jesus (AS) in the actual language they were sent are the ACTUAL "Word of God."
The Bible we have now can in no way be claimed to be the actual "word of God." I mean which translated language are you going to chose, which version are you going to attruibute to God Almighty as His Word?
This is the starting point for seeking Salvation and to detemine which is the True religion of God Almighty.



I'm sure God can speak many languages. I dont think it matters very much really, translations of the Bible are done by a whole team of eminent scolars, many Godly men who believe the original manuscripts are the Word of God and treat them as such, prayerfully undertking the task.

[ah1999]

But then the Gospel is about Jesus so what , he was given a book about himself, get real.

Yes, let's get real. How can we comment on something which we don't have? :confused:
If one believes in God and one beleives in the fact that Jesus (AS) was given a scripture (Gospel) then one believes in that Scripture as being the "word of God"....the Gospel of Jesus Christ, son of Mary. But...we don't have the original, we don't have that "word of God." :)

Anyhow, may I ask if Christains believe that the WHOLE BIBLE IS INSPIRED BY GOD, i.e. 100%?

[veritas]

So what about sura 10:94 ?

[veritas]

There are only three Divinely revealed religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Each claims to be the only one which leads to Salvation. Since there is only one God then He has chosen only one religion for mankind.
Needless to say in order to determine which is the True religion which God Almighty has chosen for mankind to follow we need to carefully examine the fundamentals of each religion in an unbiased manner.
If start concentrating on minor issues such as:
Did Pharoah drown or not
Female Genital Mutilation
Is Selling alcohol allowed
and other subjects the likes thereof then it means one is not really interested in searching for the Truth.

We need to concentrate on the foundations of each religion, its fundamentals, the linchpins which are at the heart of the religion.
If one wishes to follow a religion then close scrutiny of each Divine religion leads to only one conclusion.

Each religion claims to follow the “Word of God” (Divine scripture) perhaps a starting point would be to determine which scripture could not possibly be the actual “word of God.”


From thread:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?p=30169#post30169
According to Mr. Veritas’ Arabic Bible Phillipians 2:8-11 is thus:

8وَإِذْ ظَهَرَ بِهَيْئَةِ إِنْسَانٍ، أَمْعَنَ فِي الاِتِّضَاعِ، وَكَانَ طَائِعاً حَتَّى الْمَوْتِ، مَوْتِ الصَّلِيبِ.
9لِذَلِكَ أَيْضاً رَفَّعَهُ اللهُ عَالِياً، وَأَعْطَاهُ الاِسْمَ الَّذِي يَفُوقُ كُلَّ اسْمٍ،
10لِكَيْ تَنْحَنِيَ سُجُوداً لاِسْمِ يَسُوعَ كُلُّ رُكْبَةٍ، سَوَاءٌ فِي السَّمَاءِ أَمْ عَلَى الأَرْضِ أَمْ تَحْتَ الأَرْضِ،
11وَلِكَيْ يَعْتَرِفَ كُلُّ لِسَانٍ بِأَنَّ يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحَ هُوَ الرَّبُّ، لِمَجْدِ اللهِ الآبِ.


The translation you have provided of these verses is thus:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You believe these are the "word of God' But which one?
The English translation you have provided of these verses contains words which are not in the Arabic text. So which is the "word of God?"
All of them, any of them?

What about the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints ? They are not as their name might suggest Christian and their religion according to them is divinely inspired. Their story is quite similar to Islam an "angel" appeared and gave them another Gospel. Interesting when Our Bible says if an angel ftom heaven preach another gospel other than this one let him be accursed.

[ah1999]

My personal opinion on any ayah/ verse of the Quran is of little relevance. If you do wish to know about ayah 10:94 I can try to get you an authentic commentary on this.

But back to the main issue.
You have a perfect audience here…hundreds of young educated Muslims.
This is an ideal opportunity for you to tell us about the fundamentals/ root beliefs/ the linchpins which hold the edifice of the whole of Christianity.
Yet you are refusing to answer the most basic of questions about Christianity.
You’ve spent a lot of time asking questions/discussing issues such as female genitalia mutilation, ancient pagan/satanic symbols, whether farting breaks one one’s wudu or not but when it comes to answering questions about the most basic beliefs of Christianity you shy away.

Why do Christians belief Jesus is son of God?
Because it says so in the Bible!
Why do Christians belief Jesus is God?
Because it says so in the Bible!
Why do Christians belief in the Trinity?
Because it says so in the Bible!
Why do Christians belief Jesus is the Saviour?
Because it says so in the Bible!
So do Christians believe that the WHOLE BIBLE IS INSPIRED BY GOD, i.e. 100%?
Eh……no answer! :eek:

I am embarrassed to keep asking you the same question again and again but is it the crux of the matter.

Any credibility you have built on this forum is in danger of collapsing from its very roots.

If you refuse to answer the question on this occasion what conclusion will the audience draw from this?

[FlipFlop]

So what about sura 10:94 ?

what about it?

[ah1999]

what about it?
Please let us not get side tracked.
Let Mr. Veritas answer the question so we can all learn about the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.

[FlipFlop]

Yes the Bible is the inspired word of God.


so why did he never mention, in his own words, that he(jesus) was infact god and that we should worship him? :rolleyes:

[veritas]

so why did he never mention, in his own words, that he(jesus) was infact god and that we should worship him? :rolleyes:

Before Abraham was I am.

When he said this the Jews wanted to stone him because they believed he had blasphemed by claiming to be God. Worship was reserved solely for God amongst the Jewish people. People worshipped Jesus, if he was Just a prophet he would have stopped them as only God deserved to be worshipped but he didn't.

I just remembered a scripture where Jesus says he is the Son of God

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.

Matthew 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mark 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him

[veritas]

Yes well, since I did want to talk about "what Jesus Saves means", I was gonna throw you guys off, but there has so much discussion already, that seems a bit silly. "Is the bible Gods word" seems to be what is being discussed, and since the Christian doctorine of Salvation is derived from the bible the two topics are interlinked.

The only other option would be to start a whole new thread on "is the bible Gods word?"...and personally I think too much has already been said here to keep shifting around.

Z.

I have started a thread about sura 10:94 or is it ayah 10:94 , please excuse my ignorance

[veritas]

If start concentrating on minor issues such as:
Did Pharoah drown or not
Female Genital Mutilation


So you consider mutilation of women a minor issue ?

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

So you consider mutilation of women a minor issue ?

Yeah I agree he worded that very badly, but we know what he means, issues away from fundamental tenents of doctrine, which FGM is. Also it's already been covered extensively on another thread
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=2390

Z.

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

please excuse my ignorance

your excused!!!!


...this time! :p

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

Thanks to Yahyah (mod) we now have two threads

"Jesus Saves" what does it mean - this thread
"Is the Bible Gods Word" http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=2510

No more excuses for going :Offtopic: now!

.

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

You misunderstand, the law is still in effect however , we consider sin to lead to death (spiritual and physical). .

OK I've read that big long article at least twice least I be accused....and I've got questions but I couldn't find this bit in the article

How do you know that sin leads to spiritual and physical death the scriptures not worded that way is it?

.

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

How do you know that sin leads to spiritual and physical death the scriptures not worded that way is it?

tick tock...tick tock

I'm waiting to start asking Q's on this thread proper,

...do u know this one off hand? otherwise I'll move on to my other question and u can get back to me on this?

.

[veritas]

tick tock...tick tock

I'm waiting to start asking Q's on this thread proper,

...do u know this one off hand? otherwise I'll move on to my other question and u can get back to me on this?

.
Ezekiel 18:4

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

Ezekiel 18:4

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

OK, but you don't mean literally die do u? not on the spot! :eek:

Seriously, How do u understand this?

.

[ah1999]

Mr. Veritas,
The signature you are using and the Arabic Bible text Phi 2:10-11 you quoted are different.
At least be consistent when you are quoting the “word of God” from the same chapter and verse.
The Bible text you quoted is thus:

لِكَيْ تَنْحَنِيَ سُجُوداً لاِسْمِ يَسُوعَ كُلُّ رُكْبَةٍ، سَوَاءٌ فِي السَّمَاءِ أَمْ عَلَى الأَرْضِ أَمْ تَحْتَ الأَرْضِ، وَلِكَيْ يَعْتَرِفَ كُلُّ لِسَانٍ بِأَنَّ يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحَ هُوَ الرَّبُّ، لِمَجْدِ اللهِ الآبِ.


According to your Arabic Bible your signature is thus:

لكي تجثو باسم يسوع كل ركبة ممن في السماء ومن على الارض ومن تحت الارض
ويعترف كل لسان ان يسوع المسيح هو رب لمجد الله الآب



Fortunately for you grammatically both are correct.
You owe me one. :)

[veritas]

Mr. Veritas,
The signature you are using and the Arabic Bible text Phi 2:10-11 you quoted are different.
At least be consistent when you are quoting the “word of God” from the same chapter and verse.
The Bible text you quoted is thus:

لِكَيْ تَنْحَنِيَ سُجُوداً لاِسْمِ يَسُوعَ كُلُّ رُكْبَةٍ، سَوَاءٌ فِي السَّمَاءِ أَمْ عَلَى الأَرْضِ أَمْ تَحْتَ الأَرْضِ، وَلِكَيْ يَعْتَرِفَ كُلُّ لِسَانٍ بِأَنَّ يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحَ هُوَ الرَّبُّ، لِمَجْدِ اللهِ الآبِ.


According to your Arabic Bible your signature is thus:

لكي تجثو باسم يسوع كل ركبة ممن في السماء ومن على الارض ومن تحت الارض
ويعترف كل لسان ان يسوع المسيح هو رب لمجد الله الآب



Fortunately for you grammatically both are correct.
You owe me one. :)

Thank you very much

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

Definition of Fulfillment

(1) To accomplish or to carry into effect, as a Prophecy or a Promise;
(2) to meet or satisfy the requirements;
(3) to bring to a finish or completion;
(4) to bring the conditions of a law to realization;
(5)to bring to a consummation.


Veritas believes: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

The scripture you used means that Jesus met every requirement of the law

The bible says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

Matthew 5:17
• "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
• For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Christian article (posted by Veritas) says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

“But you see, there are some groups who want to pick and choose (depending upon their traditions) what Old Testament laws they want to keep, and not keep. But the law isn't a salad bar where we take what we want, and leave the rest. If we are indebted to one law, we're indebted to all the laws. Thank God Christ fulfilled "all" the law, and that includes the law of God's Sabbath rest!”


My first question is this:

How can you say that Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law i.e. “till ALL be fulfilled” without leaving out even “one jot or one tittle” from the Law, when for example Jesus never married or divorced?

(1) Jesus never personally accomplished or to carried into effect the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law, as a Prophecy or a Promise other otherwise;
(2) Jesus never personally met or satisfied the requirements of the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(3) Jesus never personally brought to a finish or completion the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(4) Jesus never personally brought the conditions of a law to realization the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(5) Jesus never personally brought to a consummation the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;

Please explain

[veritas]

Definition of Fulfillment

(1) To accomplish or to carry into effect, as a Prophecy or a Promise;
(2) to meet or satisfy the requirements;
(3) to bring to a finish or completion;
(4) to bring the conditions of a law to realization;
(5)to bring to a consummation.


Veritas believes: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law



The bible says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

Matthew 5:17
• "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
• For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Christian article (posted by Veritas) says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

“But you see, there are some groups who want to pick and choose (depending upon their traditions) what Old Testament laws they want to keep, and not keep. But the law isn't a salad bar where we take what we want, and leave the rest. If we are indebted to one law, we're indebted to all the laws. Thank God Christ fulfilled "all" the law, and that includes the law of God's Sabbath rest!”


My first question is this:

How can you say that Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law i.e. “till ALL be fulfilled” without leaving out even “one jot or one tittle” from the Law, when for example Jesus never married or divorced?

(1) Jesus never personally accomplished or to carried into effect the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law, as a Prophecy or a Promise other otherwise;
(2) Jesus never personally met or satisfied the requirements of the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(3) Jesus never personally brought to a finish or completion the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(4) Jesus never personally brought the conditions of a law to realization the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(5) Jesus never personally brought to a consummation the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;

Please explain


What was the purpose of the law ?

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

What was the purpose of the law ?


That's not an answer, that's a question!

Tell u what u can answer mine 1st

Then u can answer your own, I mean it's your religion! :D

.

[veritas]

Definition of Fulfillment

(1) To accomplish or to carry into effect, as a Prophecy or a Promise;
(2) to meet or satisfy the requirements;
(3) to bring to a finish or completion;
(4) to bring the conditions of a law to realization;
(5)to bring to a consummation.


Veritas believes: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law



The bible says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

Matthew 5:17
• "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
• For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Christian article (posted by Veritas) says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

“But you see, there are some groups who want to pick and choose (depending upon their traditions) what Old Testament laws they want to keep, and not keep. But the law isn't a salad bar where we take what we want, and leave the rest. If we are indebted to one law, we're indebted to all the laws. Thank God Christ fulfilled "all" the law, and that includes the law of God's Sabbath rest!”


My first question is this:

How can you say that Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law i.e. “till ALL be fulfilled” without leaving out even “one jot or one tittle” from the Law, when for example Jesus never married or divorced?

(1) Jesus never personally accomplished or to carried into effect the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law, as a Prophecy or a Promise other otherwise;
(2) Jesus never personally met or satisfied the requirements of the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(3) Jesus never personally brought to a finish or completion the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(4) Jesus never personally brought the conditions of a law to realization the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(5) Jesus never personally brought to a consummation the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;

Please explain

The purpose of the law was to atone for the sin of Adam. The Sin of Adam caused the separation of God and man. By the law and sacrifice of animals sin was atoned for. Jesus was sacrificed to pay the price for our sin. When you accept Jesus you meet every requirement of the law. I.E. The sin of Adam is cancelled by the blood of Jesus.

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

The purpose of the law was to atone for the sin of Adam. The Sin of Adam caused the separation of God and man. By the law and sacrifice of animals sin was atoned for. Jesus was sacrificed to pay the price for our sin. When you accept Jesus you meet every requirement of the law. I.E. The sin of Adam is cancelled by the blood of Jesus.

Thankyou for your reply,

Lets try again, given:
1. The definition of fullfullment quoted by YOU, quoted in the CHRISTIAN article YOU supplied

2. The statement which shows that YOU believe Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law

3. The BIBLE verses which explicitly STATE that Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law without leaving out even "one jot" or "one tittle"

Can you please answer this question?

How can you say that Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law i.e. “till ALL be fulfilled” without leaving out even “one jot or one tittle” from the Law, when for example Jesus never married or divorced?

(1) Jesus never personally accomplished or to carried into effect the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law, as a Prophecy or a Promise other otherwise;
(2) Jesus never personally met or satisfied the requirements of the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(3) Jesus never personally brought to a finish or completion the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(4) Jesus never personally brought the conditions of a law to realization the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(5) Jesus never personally brought to a consummation the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
.



1. Definition of Fulfillment

(1) To accomplish or to carry into effect, as a Prophecy or a Promise;
(2) to meet or satisfy the requirements;
(3) to bring to a finish or completion;
(4) to bring the conditions of a law to realization;
(5)to bring to a consummation.


2. Veritas believes: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

Originally Posted by veritas
The scripture you used means that Jesus met every requirement of the law

3. The bible says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

Matthew 5:17
• "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
• For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Christian article (posted by Veritas) says: Jesus Fulfilled ALL the Law

“But you see, there are some groups who want to pick and choose (depending upon their traditions) what Old Testament laws they want to keep, and not keep. But the law isn't a salad bar where we take what we want, and leave the rest. If we are indebted to one law, we're indebted to all the laws. Thank God Christ fulfilled "all" the law, and that includes the law of God's Sabbath rest!”[/B] [/COLOR]

[veritas]

Thankyou for your reply,

Lets try again, given:
1. The definition of fullfullment quoted by YOU, quoted in the CHRISTIAN article YOU supplied

2. The statement which shows that YOU believe Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law

3. The BIBLE verses which explicitly STATE that Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law without leaving out even "one jot" or "one tittle"

Can you please answer this question?

How can you say that Jesus fulfilled ALL the Law i.e. “till ALL be fulfilled” without leaving out even “one jot or one tittle” from the Law, when for example Jesus never married or divorced?

(1) Jesus never personally accomplished or to carried into effect the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law, as a Prophecy or a Promise other otherwise;
(2) Jesus never personally met or satisfied the requirements of the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(3) Jesus never personally brought to a finish or completion the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(4) Jesus never personally brought the conditions of a law to realization the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
(5) Jesus never personally brought to a consummation the act of marriage or divorce according to the Law;
.





He fulfilled the purpose of the law. By becoming the perfect sacrifice

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

He fulfilled the purpose of the law. By becoming the perfect sacrifice

So just to get this crystal clear, when you say that "Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law" you DON'T MEAN that Jesus personally fullfilled ALL the Law i.e every requirement, YOU ACTUALLY MEAN that Jesus fullfilled the purpose of the Law i.e attonement?

IS THIS STATEMENT (100%) TRUE?????????????


:confused:

[veritas]

So just to get this crystal clear, when you say that "Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law" you DON'T MEAN that Jesus personally fullfilled ALL the Law i.e every requirement, YOU ACTUALLY MEAN that Jesus fullfilled the purpose of the Law i.e attonement?

IS THIS STATEMENT (100%) TRUE?????????????


:confused:
Yes he fulfilled the purpose of the law

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

Yes he fulfilled the purpose of the law

Is this statement is 100% correct is what I asked!!!! Will you just answer the question!!!!! YES OR NO!!!!!!!!! Gosh :chairshot

So just to get this crystal clear, when you say that "Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law" you DON'T MEAN that Jesus personally fullfilled ALL the Law i.e every requirement, YOU ACTUALLY MEAN that Jesus fullfilled the purpose of the Law i.e attonement?

IS THIS STATEMENT (100%) TRUE?????????????

:confused:

[veritas]

Is this statement is 100% correct is what I asked!!!! Will you just answer the question!!!!! YES OR NO!!!!!!!!! Gosh :chairshot



:confused:
Thats what I said :)

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

So just to get this crystal clear, when you say that "Jesus fullfilled ALL the Law" you DON'T MEAN that Jesus personally fullfilled ALL the Law i.e every requirement, YOU ACTUALLY MEAN that Jesus fullfilled the purpose of the Law i.e attonement?

IS THIS STATEMENT (100%) TRUE?????????????


Now, finally you've answer yes to the above being 100% true.

So when you said Jesus met every requirement of the Law, the definition you supplied wasn't what you meant.

From now on can u please can u just answer me straight as this is like getting blood out of a stone, you'd think you had something to hide!

Next 2 questionq please:

1. What was Jesus attononing for?
2. Was attonement the only purpose of the law?

ta

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

Veritas, Any chance you could answer these? With ALL THE SIDE TRACKING, the real questions keep getting lost Thanks
.

[veritas]

Now, finally you've answer yes to the above being 100% true.

So when you said Jesus met every requirement of the Law, the definition you supplied wasn't what you meant.

From now on can u please can u just answer me straight as this is like getting blood out of a stone, you'd think you had something to hide!

Next 2 questionq please:

1. What was Jesus attononing for?
2. Was attonement the only purpose of the law?

ta

As I said I have been on holiday this is my first day back

Jesus was not atoning. He was paying the price for the sin of Adam to reconcile us with the father. Man atoned for Sin but sacrifice had to be made each year for their sin , it was like a debt they could never pay off.

Before the fall of man there was no sin. That all changed when the Eve listened to Satan and took fruit from the tree of knowledge , Adam had been instructed not to even touch this fruit yet did not stop Eve and ate some himslef. If Adam had not sinned the law would not be necesary.

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

As I said I have been on holiday this is my first day back

Jesus was not atoning. He was paying the price for the sin of Adam to reconcile us with the father. Man atoned for Sin but sacrifice had to be made each year for their sin , it was like a debt they could never pay off.

Before the fall of man there was no sin. That all changed when the Eve listened to Satan and took fruit from the tree of knowledge , Adam had been instructed not to even touch this fruit yet did not stop Eve and ate some himslef. If Adam had not sinned the law would not be necesary.

Thanks, that was painless! :)

Please confirm or correct my understanding of the christian doctorine in the following until you 100% agree:

The Original Sin: All of humanity has inherited the sin of Adam. Only the death of the sinless offspring of God could erase this sin. No one is born clean, no matter if his life is only for a single day. Only baptism and faith in the death of Jesus can save one from this destiny.

The Atonement: The sin of Adam was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless innocent named Jesus who was also "fully" God and "fully" human.

The Path to Salvation: If you have faith in the atonement of Jesus for the sin of Adam which you have inherited then you shall be saved. You only need faith. No work is necessary.

Thanks

[veritas]

Thanks, that was painless! :)

Please confirm or correct my understanding of the christian doctorine in the following until you 100% agree:

The Original Sin: All of humanity has inherited the sin of Adam. Only the death of the sinless offspring of God could erase this sin. No one is born clean, no matter if his life is only for a single day. Only baptism and faith in the death of Jesus can save one from this destiny.

The Atonement: The sin of Adam was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless innocent named Jesus who was also "fully" God and "fully" human.

The Path to Salvation: If you have faith in the atonement of Jesus for the sin of Adam which you have inherited then you shall be saved. You only need faith. No work is necessary.

Thanks

Yes 100% we are saved by grace less anyone boast. I feel a deep question comining :) Have you answered mine yet ? Are you feeling better ?

[Hater_of_the_Wall]

Yes 100% we are saved by grace less anyone boast. I feel a deep question comining :) Have you answered mine yet ? Are you feeling better ?

Nope still feeling rough, Kids ill also! Yuk!

answered partly one question on Yahya's thread (forgot what it called ..fuzzy head)

yes deep questions after lunch perhaps...!


IA

[veritas]

Nope still feeling rough, Kids ill also! Yuk!

answered partly one question on Yahya's thread (forgot what it called ..fuzzy head)

yes deep questions after lunch perhaps...!


IA

I'm going to have to clean house soon. I'll pray for your healing.