Martydom Operations - Halal/Haraam?

[abdulmojid]

whats your opinion?

[LocalGenius]

sorry this may sound stupid..
what do u mean by martydom operations???? Suicide bombs???

[abdulmojid]

sorry this may sound stupid..
what do u mean by martydom operations???? Suicide bombs???

YOU can call it that if YOU want

[sunni]

Salam
im not gonna say, but I agree 100&1% with wats happenin in Palestine, thats my view!
I have studied a number of scholars and the most prominent, as everyone knows Qardawi, late Abul A'la Mawdudi.. say in circumstances like that in Palestine its halal and other opressed lands i.e. Chechneya... Theres this quote from the Qur'an that says slay them wherever you find them with reference to Jihad. I dont know the exact chapter or verse, i memorised it for a assignment, so sori!
otherwise its not.

wasalam


[QUOTE=abdulmojid]

[abdulmojid]

i think the qoute is (just paraphasing)

'where you find them, smite thier necks'

[sunni]

well it, basically means the same thing
wasalam


UOTE=abdulmojid]i think the qoute is (just paraphasing)

'where you find them, smite thier necks'[/QUOTE]

[LocalGenius]

Salam
im not gonna say, but I agree 100&1% with wats happenin in Palestine, thats my view!
I have studied a number of scholars and the most prominent, as everyone knows Qardawi, late Abul A'la Mawdudi.. say in circumstances like that in Palestine its halal and other opressed lands i.e. Chechneya... Theres this quote from the Qur'an that says slay them wherever you find them with reference to Jihad. I dont know the exact chapter or verse, i memorised it for a assignment, so sori!
otherwise its not.

wasalam


[QUOTE=abdulmojid]



i agreee with you there. IN opressed lands its totally allowed. But i dont think it is halal if such a thing happens in this country.

How about in Iraq? The beheading of civilians.. aid workers?????

[sunni]

salam
u have to ask urself why was Ian biggley in iraq? he was there to make a livin, yeah. But that means takin over iraqis work! in my eyes form of occupation!!! such phenemona occuring in the Muslim territories because of these so called workers, 'trying to make a living' puleeeze!
bad the way he was killed was not very humane.
ms Hasaan, on the other hand was killed very brutally. more yet to be found out on her to make a real judgement, dont believe everything the media says!
anyway, sorry if I am critical but thats what i believe.
wasalam


How about in Iraq? The beheading of civilians.. aid workers?????[/QUOTE]

[LocalGenius]

no thats fine i like critical analysis hehe.

So yeah ofcourse news like BBC and ITV all full of lies,, your absolutely right there. I donot believe what the media says. I guess in a war situation it happens. But islamically is it allowed? in the time of the prophet would such attrocities be commited with civilians.. But yeah i see where u are coming from, WE donot know what Bigley or others the like of him where doing their so we cant pass judgment.

[ayesha]

WE understand the reasoning behind why suicide bombers do what they do in oppressed land such as Palestine...but what about non-Muslism? they think we all a bunch of extreme terrorists! but it is up to us as Muslims to explain and talk to them at any opportunity... give a moderate, humane view of Islam...we must act upon this....?

[sunni]

salam
yeah we should be showin islam in a good light, but that dont mean we shud do things they like.....what i say is 'islam, take it or leave it' why be sumfin we are not?
whatever we do or say, aint gonna make em like us Muslims nor like Islam.
it says in surah al maidah, verse 51, '...take not the jews and christians as auliya(friends,protectores, helpers) they are but auliya of each other....'

wasalam


WE understand the reasoning behind why suicide bombers do what they do in oppressed land such as Palestine...but what about non-Muslism? they think we all a bunch of extreme terrorists! but it is up to us as Muslims to explain and talk to them at any opportunity... give a moderate, humane view of Islam...we must act upon this....?

[LocalGenius]

Islam should be a religion which allows non muslims to become muslims without changing their traditions their cultures and habits.. except of the few which are forbidden to do in ISlam. For example a non muslim when he becomes a muslim he dosent have to change his name or change his dress code.

I think we are making Islam a lot more complicated than it really is. Islam should be portrayed as a simple religion which blends into the society we live in. Not something which seem strange and which is here to change the whole society. NO.. unfortunately that is how Islam is being portrayed today.

Obviously we cant change the hearts of the stubborn people out that is not our job. That is Allahs job. OUr job is to convey the message.

[sunilight]

so let me get this straight
you think its ok for people to kill un-armed cizilians, children, babies and old people?
if this is the case then you must also excpet that its ok for the isrealis to do the same to the palestinian people

I agree 100&1% with wats happenin in Palestine, thats my view!
[QUOTE=abdulmojid]

i think its bad on both sides, i think that both sides beleive they are just in their actions,

i think the situation in isrelal/palestein will only be resolved by global intervention, negotaiation and comprimise.

Apartheid in s.africa did not end through a bloody battle,
and most people the average uk person sits at home and they dont understand the religious inplications, the history or anything like that
all they see is people blowing up people

it was my understanding that a martyr is someone Joan of arc like like
who get killed unjustly standing up for what they believe. not someone who blows themselves up. That lady in iraq who built hospitals and cared for the children then was captured by the iraq terrorists and killed SHE WAS A MARTYR, she had a choice to turn her back and go to england, she knew the risks and ultimately scarificed her life to HELP others. THIS IS A MARTYR

i think that suicide bombers are desperate people tempted by the devil to do ungodly acts such as killing babies

if they want to kill someone why not go for the government
after all if you want to kill a snake you need to cut off it head, if you stamp on its tail its just gonna turn around and bite you.

its dangerous game to make heros out of child-killers no matter whos side they are on.

[abdulmojid]

suniloight, a quick question, are you gay?

[LocalGenius]

it was my understanding that a martyr is someone Joan of arc like like
who get killed unjustly standing up for what they believe. not someone who blows themselves up. That lady in iraq who built hospitals and cared for the children then was captured by the iraq terrorists and killed SHE WAS A MARTYR, she had a choice to turn her back and go to england, she knew the risks and ultimately scarificed her life to HELP others. THIS IS A MARTYR

You do not know her intentions nore does anyone. You cant say she was a martyr. Only Allah knows that.



so let me get this straight
you think its ok for people to kill un-armed cizilians, children, babies and old people?
if this is the case then you must also excpet that its ok for the isrealis to do the same to the palestinian people
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunni
I agree 100&1% with wats happenin in Palestine, thats my view![QUOTE=abdulmojid]

i think its bad on both sides, i think that both sides beleive they are just in their actions,

Do you know that Israeli settlers terrorised palestinian civilians.. through having backup of israeli army police and government. I dont think these people are innocent at all. The children abuse the palestinian women, the men throw windows through palestinian homes likewise with women..I am not talking about the soldiers i am talking about ordinary people living in Israel. Check out the history of ISrael/Palestine confliction.

Again these people come to live in Israel and kick people out...What do they expect, to get sweets in return. come on dont live in cuckoo land. Dont be blunket and take the right of self defence away from us. I think all the people who moved in to ISrael kicking palestinians out left their human rights behind just like a robber does when he enters ur home.

However i do agree with you comment that suicide bombing should not happen in countries which show no opression to muslims. THere are terrorists from all religions not only Islam.

i think the situation in isrelal/palestein will only be resolved by global intervention, negotaiation and comprimise.

Palestinians representatives have said that suicide bombings will stop if you remove yourself from palestine. But Zionist ISrael has not yet listened to palestinians... If they just remove themselves from a place that does not belong to them then everything will be fine but they just dont really care about their ppl.

Hold yourself and get a grip ad dont fall for the western media they a brainwashing clumpsy ppl like you and unfortunately there are lots of u around

[sunilight]

he he
sooooo missing the point
oh well

[LocalGenius]

he he
sooooo missing the point
oh well


salaam

dont give up please. how am i missing the point.?????
Explain.

wasalaam

[80s kid]

Assalamualaikum

I find it difficult to understand how anyone can condone the actions of suicide bombers who target civilians.

Note however, that CONDONING an action is not the same as UNDERSTANDING it. I can absolutely understand how a Palestinian could feel so angry at the deaths of his relatives, so bereft of help from other muslims countries, so angry at the injustices of his life- that he becomes a suicide bomber. But that doesn't make his actions right.

Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi has said the following (as reported by IslamOline)
No one, as far as Islam is concerned, is held responsible for another's actions. Upon seeing a woman killed in the battlefield, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, denied the act and said: "That woman shouldn't have been killed anyway!".

We also have the following examples from the Caliph Abu-Bakr
Abu-Bakr's instructions to Usama's Campaign on Syria: “...Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women...."

Abu-Bakr's Instructions to Yazid ibn-Abi Sufian:“...don’t kill a woman or a child or an old person..."

Given these statements, how can it be permissable to kill civilians (especially women and children) in Israel.

I do not think it is acceptable to say that "this is the only way they have of fighting back". Muslims are prohibited from killing non-combatants- End Of Story.

Sometimes I hear that "even women are soldiers in Israel". Well, the statement of the Prophet(SAW) that "That woman shouldn't have been killed anyway"suggests to me that unless they are in uniform, they cannot be targetted.

At other times I hear that "all Israelis support the war against the Palestinians". Now quite apart from the fact that this is not true and the fact that suicide bombers do not know who they are killing, this is a very slippery slope. If some crazed fanatic enters your house tonight and says "I am going to kill you, you voted for a government that has send soldiers to kill thousands in my country of Iraq and you pay taxes that buy the bullets that those soldiers shoot my countrymen with. Why did you not give up your citizenship and move to an Islamic Country? Why did you not refuse to pay your taxes? You are as guilty as the soldiers who are killing my country men" What would your response be?

Wassalam

[sunilight]

salaam

dont give up please. how am i missing the point.?????
Explain.

wasalaam

the point i am trying to explain is...

people do good things and bad things
no-one knows the true intentions of anyone

do poeple blow babies up for God or for themselves to raise awareness of there own plight?
is there fight a holy one or a humanitiarian one
do they commit suicide out of respect and worship for their creator or out of desperation for there own plight?

a persons intention is a too private subject to be able to make assumptions
at the end of the day does anyone know anyone elses true intentions do we even know our own all the time?

surely we can only judge poeple on there actions and the results of those actions, positive or negative.

for example the woman who was killed in iraq, after she stayed behind to help iraqi children and the sick people could have done it for a miriad of reasons - she may not have done that for Allahs sake i except that.

the same reasoning must then be applied to the suicide bombers - we dont know there intentions - but one thing i do know is nowhere in Quaran does it say killing of unarmed civilians is lawful.

the rules of war in islam are so strict you can even burn a food crop.
the cannot fight in hibatable areas etc.

Do not betray the agreements you have made.
Do not make any plundering.
Wrong no one and exercise no torture.
Do not touch the children, women and the old.
Do not destroy fruit-trees and fertile lands.
Do not kill sheep and cattle.
Respect all religious persons who live in hermitages or convents and spare their edifices. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kami fi al-Tarikh, Vol.3, p.227.)

in respnse to the other post that guy posted a few above yours if this makes me 'gay' then i better get down to mardi gras cus i am coming out!!

[Basic]

I don't know to be honest what evidence backs up suicide bombings, but I don't think its justified at all. The nature of suicide is haraam is it not?

When we look at situations like Palestine and Israel, there is still no justification of suicide bombings in Israeli Cafe's. Rather than this being a religious war, it is political. You have groups like Hamas on one side which send recruits over into Israel to carry out these actions and on the other hand we have state terrorism from the Zionist state of Israel.

We need to look at things realistically now, can the Zionists be kicked out of the middle east? The answer is no! They are heavily backed by Uncle Sam and he aint goin anywere. In a way, the USA wants these attacks to happen so that a recognised Palestinian state is not formed.

The only way the people of Palestine can be liberated if at first they liberate their minds and be aware that they have neighbours. If you ask any average Palestinian I am sure they are willing to live and let live. If that is the case, suicide bombings are quite irrelevant in comparison.

[PhoeniX]

salam
u have to ask urself why was Ian biggley in iraq? he was there to make a livin, yeah. But that means takin over iraqis work! in my eyes form of occupation!!!


Hmmm thats a BIT freaky. Isnt that the view the BNPs take?

They came to OUR country.

Took OUR jobs.

Live a better life than US.

There were plenty of jews and christians and fire worshippers & other non-muslims that lived in muslim lands amongst muslims, at the time of the Prophet SAW, at they were allowed to live in peace and trade, and were protected by the law of the land, provided they followed the laws of the land.

This view doesnt seem to be one of tolerance.

And what crime did Ian Biggley commit except for that?

If the British are to start killing us, and others say "well what were they doing in a country so hostile to muslims, anyway?" what r u soing to say 2 that?

Does that make it ok? Or is it different, because we're muslims?

There are trades that we benefit from, from the other non-muslims you know.

[maxfire]

Those of you who are against the "suicide bombing" are missing the point and are actually falling for the propaganda. I would rather call them martyrdom operations because that what they are. It all depends on their intention.

The bombers are carrying out the operations with the intention of harming their enemy rather than just killing themselves and if they were to miraclously survive they would be happy to live on. Surely, if they wanted to commit suicide they would have made sure of that.

They are merely sacraficing themseleves as the last resort since they don't have the apache helicopters and tanks of the Israelis. The palestinians have every right to defend themseleves against the occupation with whatever means available to them. Furthermore, I do not consider settlers as civilians and if babies are caught in the crossfire, they are simply collateral damage as they are not the intended target.

[sunilight]

I do not consider settlers as civilians and if babies are caught in the crossfire, they are simply collateral damage as they are not the intended target.
do you consider the arab jews that have lived there for time as civilians, and what about the people in the twin towers are they collateral damage too?
hey and what about the people in northern island christmas shopping when the omargh bombing happened are they collarteral damage? what about the silly isrealis bomb houses when they say that the women and children who live amoungst hamas are not the intended target - is this the isreali's collateral damage?

surely you have to agree there is a huge difference in targetting army bases and pizza huts?

personally i understand why someone may target an army base or the pentagon in the case of the 9/11 but shopping centres and buses surely they arent viable miltrary targets?

when is someone gonna stand up and demand peace for everyone? And condem civilian killings on all sides?

out of interest who is the intended target when a person blows themselves up at a pizza hut or drives a plane into the twin towers?

[sunilight]

i would also like to say b4 people slating me that
i do understand the reasons behind suicide bombings

if someone came to my house shot my kids, killed my husband, and bulldozed my house then built a shopping center on top of my house.

i would be the first to get them back by any means necessary but would this make it halal?

Where is the Qu'ranic evidence to either permit or forbid this?

[Mr Sin]

i would also like to say b4 people slating me that
i do understand the reasons behind suicide bombings

if someone came to my house shot my kids, killed my husband, and bulldozed my house then built a shopping center on top of my house.

i would be the first to get them back by any means necessary but would this make it halal?

Where is the Qu'ranic evidence to either permit or forbid this?

Purposely blowing babies up on a bus is a hell of a leap away from collateral damage.

If one can't see the difference then they are ill or brainwashed or both.

[maxfire]

do you consider the arab jews that have lived there for time as civilians, and what about the people in the twin towers are they collateral damage too?

Plese do not take what I said out of context, I was talking about a specific situation and that is the Palestinian one. There is a big difference between that and the Twin Tower attacks. In my view, the 9/11 attacks were wrong because they deliberately targeted civilians in another country.

On the other hand, The Israeli society is not a civil society made up of civilans they are a military occupier where everyone over the age of 18 is required to serve in the army for a number of years and can be called upon later to serve the occupation. That means most Israelis would have mean involved in the military at some point during their lives, while others are settlers in palestinan areas and staunch supporters of the occupation.

That's why palestinian attacks are justified because they would be killing more occupiers than civilians. Obviously, civilians can't always be avoided since the Palestiniand don't have precision bombing like the Israelis. Nonetheless, the attacks are worth it.

what about the silly isrealis bomb houses when they say that the women and children who live amoungst hamas are not the intended target - is this the isreali's collateral damage?

You can not equate the two, The Israelis can easily avoid civilians by being more precise with the capabilities they got. On many occasions they bomb crowed areas where hamas are not even there. They also collectively punish civilans by bombing and destroying homes.

[sunilight]

the thing is - one man's collateral damage is another man's terrorismand each believe they are just as right as the other

that is why there must be something islamic to guide us
if there are rules on war there must be rules on occupation
anyone know??

[sohaib]

Aa
Depends on the situation. If you have a gun use that instead.
And the person who dose this act should be specialy selected. They should be concious of who and what they are attacking. Strictly adhere to the Islamic rules of war.
No children or mentaly ill people should be part of anyopperation.
Ws

[barodate]

How about in Iraq? The beheading of civilians.. aid workers?????
I personallly believe that the executions are halal... but not against aid workers.... if you notice, during the whole kennith bigely scenario no one mentioned that he was in charge of setting up camps at taji base.... so people think that he is a random british guy picked up off the street.

[barodate]

Assalamualaikum

I find it difficult to understand how anyone can condone the actions of suicide bombers who target civilians.

Note however, that CONDONING an action is not the same as UNDERSTANDING it. I can absolutely understand how a Palestinian could feel so angry at the deaths of his relatives, so bereft of help from other muslims countries, so angry at the injustices of his life- that he becomes a suicide bomber. But that doesn't make his actions right.

Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi has said the following (as reported by IslamOline)
No one, as far as Islam is concerned, is held responsible for another's actions. Upon seeing a woman killed in the battlefield, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, denied the act and said: "That woman shouldn't have been killed anyway!".

We also have the following examples from the Caliph Abu-Bakr
Abu-Bakr's instructions to Usama's Campaign on Syria: “...Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women...."

Abu-Bakr's Instructions to Yazid ibn-Abi Sufian:“...don’t kill a woman or a child or an old person..."

Given these statements, how can it be permissable to kill civilians (especially women and children) in Israel.

I do not think it is acceptable to say that "this is the only way they have of fighting back". Muslims are prohibited from killing non-combatants- End Of Story.

Sometimes I hear that "even women are soldiers in Israel". Well, the statement of the Prophet(SAW) that "That woman shouldn't have been killed anyway"suggests to me that unless they are in uniform, they cannot be targetted.

At other times I hear that "all Israelis support the war against the Palestinians". Now quite apart from the fact that this is not true and the fact that suicide bombers do not know who they are killing, this is a very slippery slope. If some crazed fanatic enters your house tonight and says "I am going to kill you, you voted for a government that has send soldiers to kill thousands in my country of Iraq and you pay taxes that buy the bullets that those soldiers shoot my countrymen with. Why did you not give up your citizenship and move to an Islamic Country? Why did you not refuse to pay your taxes? You are as guilty as the soldiers who are killing my country men" What would your response be?

Wassalam


I have a major problem with that... in the beginning you make it sound like the palestinians have been oppressed for sooooooo long that it made them crazy and they decided to strap a bomb to themself... I dont believe that to be the case.... there are palestinian suicide bombers because they WANT to be (which is halal in my opinion). The palestinians arent a bunch of loonies that just want to strap bombs to themselves because they saw their people being killed... They believe it to be martyrdom (in my opinion the phrase 'suicide bombing' was made up to put people in different opinions and for other people to constantly echo the hadith in which the prophet talks about suicide and the punishment for it). I remember watching a news channel and they had this poor poor fool on it saying that the palestinians are drove to madness and they decide to put a c4 vest on themselves.... no, they are dying because they WANT to die in Allah's cause and want to destroy the enemies in their lands.... and to those who are constantly talking about killing civillians i have researched some hadiths and there is a link to the article here (http://freehost20.websamba.com/tawhid/index.asp?id=22&read=true&section=Islamic)

[barodate]

Plese do not take what I said out of context, I was talking about a specific situation and that is the Palestinian one. There is a big difference between that and the Twin Tower attacks. In my view, the 9/11 attacks were wrong because they deliberately targeted civilians in another country.

On the other hand, The Israeli society is not a civil society made up of civilans they are a military occupier where everyone over the age of 18 is required to serve in the army for a number of years and can be called upon later to serve the occupation. That means most Israelis would have mean involved in the military at some point during their lives, while others are settlers in palestinan areas and staunch supporters of the occupation.

That's why palestinian attacks are justified because they would be killing more occupiers than civilians. Obviously, civilians can't always be avoided since the Palestiniand don't have precision bombing like the Israelis. Nonetheless, the attacks are worth it.



You can not equate the two, The Israelis can easily avoid civilians by being more precise with the capabilities they got. On many occasions they bomb crowed areas where hamas are not even there. They also collectively punish civilans by bombing and destroying homes.

MaxFire is right.... The Israelis force people to serve in their armies and defence forces.... Just because they are forced doesnt mean that they should be any less of a target because we arent going to walk up to every single military personnel and ask his situation in the home and whether he was forced and all that... But back to the topic, would you tell a patient who is DEFINATELY going to get cancer to come back when he DOES have it? In the same way these people are going to be our cancer DEFINATELY because when they grow up they will also fight against us... There is a hadith of the prophet which says:

Narrated Makhul: “The Prophet (SAW) set up the ballista while attacking the people of Taif.”
-From the Bulugh Al-Maram, Pg 457-458, Hadith number 1102

The ballista being a catapult which hurls heavy stones at the enemy’s fortifications. In the footnote it says that because the ballista is fired over the walls of cities and towns it will hit and destroy houses indiscriminately hence causing civilian damage. So if there is no way to seperate the groups of people (military and civillians) it is still permissable to attack them. The muslims arent going to sit back and wait for people to take over their land because they are afraid of killing one "civillian".

[sunilight]

In the same way these people are going to be our cancer DEFINATELY because when they grow up they will also fight against us... this is exactly the same reasoning the isrealis use to justify the murder of innocent children .. when they grow up they will be hamasniks or what ever

i have never heard that hadith before interesting as i have only heard about the rules of war which have strict ruling about what can or cant be destroyed or harmed.

[barodate]

well you should look up the hadith because it aint fabricated! its in the bulugh al maram book of jihad and that isnt the same reasoning the israelis use because the muslims DONT force people to fight as hamas or whatever!

Pg 457-458, Hadith number 1102 <- hadith refrence... happy now?